As pen and paper role-playing games moved into the realm of video games, designers realized that some alterations needed to be made for the sake of simplicity. When the game existed in the imagination of the user, a broad term such as "Wizard" could be used to cover any number of skills, spells and abilities. However, as each skill set needed to be programmed and visually realized, the more complex archetypes eventually splintered into different groups. Wizards became Mages, Warlocks, Necromancers and Pyromancers; Warriors splintered into Fighters, Barbarians, and Monks. Over time, the community learned to accept the idea that even though they are all intrinsically the same, they could still be considered distinct and separate classes.
BioWare and LucasArts appear to be betting that they can inspire the same change in the public perception of force users. Where we previously grouped Jedi as just Jedi, and Sith as Sith, they would have us break specializations into fully distinct classes. When using the fantasy archetypes as an analog it isn't that hard to see their vision. They took steps towards this goal in KOTOR by separating the Jedi into three classes, and are continuing this trend by creating four force-using specialists.
In this regard, we would have to agree with the developers. Having two classes, both of which have access to every possible force power, would almost certainly mean failure in an RPG community. Either the selection of force powers would be limited dramatically, leading to Jedi and Sith players bemoaning the lack of depth, or the selection would be so great that all non-force classes would feel left out and inferior; the latter we already saw in action.
One of the greatest worries in the early TOR community was how to make Jedi and Sith balanced in a game with non-force using counterparts. This is doubly important in a game that includes any form of player versus player combat. It appears that the developers' answer to this problem is to force (no pun intended) Jedi and Sith players into distinct roles with recognizable skill sets.
On a purely mechanical level, we would have to agree with this point as well. Without this distinction, a player wielding a lightsaber could have any specialization and his opponent would not know how to handle the situation until the battle was over. A Trooper is a Trooper, and an Imperial Agent is an Imperial Agent. But a Jedi, with any number of skill tree options, could be anything. By placing different force users into recognizable archetypes, we believe it evens the playing field by allowing non-force users to develop appropriate tactics for each.
Another issue in this debate focuses around the possible story arcs for four force users. The concern being whether or not their stories can be as unique and distinct as those seen with the other classes. For example, the life of a Smuggler varies greatly from the life of a Trooper. We know the individual narratives will be high quality and engaging, this is BioWare after all, but how different and special can the stories be between a Sith Warrior and a Sith Inquisitor?
On this point, we will have to file ourselves as mildly worried. The life of a Jedi Knight, who goes through the trials to destroy things with a lightsaber, seems far too similar to a Jedi Consular, who goes through the trials to destroy things with the force. While it is true that you could take two law enforcement officers, ask them their life story, and get completely different tales; would they be distinct enough to warrant two archetypes? We have not yet seen enough, and cannot confidently say we are convinced.
For players who choose to play a Jedi or Sith, having four force users means they have a much larger set of options for being who they want to be. If we imagine that a Trooper has 20 skills and a Smuggler has 20 skills, then a single Jedi class would also have 20 skills. This means that splitting force users into two archetypes per faction basically allows for 80 skills to be available for anyone looking to play a force user, thus allowing them to find the precise set that suits their desired style.
We understand this choice. Community polls are roughly estimating 60% of the pre-launch player base wants to roll a force user, and splitting the field does allow this group to find what they want. However, we feel this could be a squandered opportunity to add a fresh or unique new skill set to the game. In the end, while the force abilities are different, they are fairly similar to each other. A fully-realized fourth class could have been as unique and distinct as the Imperial Agent is to the Bounty Hunter.
We are taking a "Cautiously Optimistic" view on the four force users. During the time we've had to consider this decision, many worries have subsided and a couple new ones have emerged, but the reasoning behind this choice is starting to shine through. We have confidence in the developers and are looking forward to seeing how this design works in the live product.
- View User Profile
- View Posts
- Send Message
Posted 12/8/2009 8:03:15 PMFrom my perspective, I am loosely associating the Force to Magic in other MMO. In WoW, there are many types of users of magic. Some use it heavily (Mage, Warlock), some use it lightly (Paladin), some not at all (Fighter). I think the TOR designers are trying to use the same type of classification. The more a class will use the force, the more restriction it will need to have: lighter armor, weapon restriction, lesser fighting skills, etc. The description of the Consular seems to indicate this is the way they will go.
The main question remains how will they limit the skills of a Jedi Knight. In WoW, the Paladin can fight well, but it is NOT the best fighter in the game. So following the same logic, the Trooper should be the best fighter in the game, but I don't think this would fly with the players. I think they will need to position the Trooper more like a Hunter in WoW, a specialized range fighter with some special technology help. The Bounty Hunter's flying ability is a good example. It is a bit difficult for a Jedi Knight to slice you to pieces with fancy saber moves if he can only throw his saber at you (which, if designed properly, should do less damage than the Bounty Hunter's Blaster).
My two cents.
- View User Profile
- View Posts
- Send Message
Posted 12/7/2009 11:57:11 PMWhat it means for RPGs- I completely agree. If you compare these to any MMO you'll see that their no different. Take WoW for example (because we all know and love it) Warrior and paladin are essentially the same thing. Both melee, heavy armor, one just uses light powers, the other his rage. Or how about mage and warlock, both wear cloth, both cast spells. Ones just dark and the other seek intelligence and justice (so to speak).
What it means for PvP: I think the addition for four force user classes won’t affect PvP majorly as in one side being OP opposing to the other, or that force user will wipe the floor with other classes. After reading more news it’s become clear that that wouldn't be an error.
What it means for story: I believe stories anything you make it, whether it goes with lore or not. So I think you could make you Jedi knight, or SI anything lore you'd want, meaning they'd all be different from one another.
What it means for MMOs: I think there’s nothing I could say here, you pretty well covered exactly what I thought. The fact that Jedi/ Sith would have ended up with so many abilities if they hadn't made 4 does make sense.
In the end I'm fine with the 4 force users, the only thing I’m asking for is for 1 more class on each side that’s none force. That'd be nice, but it probably wouldn’t happen until the next expansion. Heck if they showed us two more classes before the games release that'd be awesome, a guy can dream right.
- View User Profile
- View Posts
- Send Message
Posted 12/7/2009 9:19:44 PMI, of course, cannot say anything specifically about the storyline differences (the game is still in development, of course) but as an avid reader and a writer, I will say that there is such a massive difference between political intrigue and frontline warfare - and therefore, I would expect there to be just as drastic a difference between stories dealing with both sides of the coin.
A Sith Warrior, for example, may have storyline quests that call for him to take a more active role in battlefield scenarios, such as to capture an enemy installation and kill an enemy general while bulldozing through his minions. On the other side, an Inquisitor might be asked to use their savvy to convince an NPC to halt an attack, or incite a war that can work toward your own personal goals. Maybe he is asked to kill an enemy general, as well, but lacking a Sith Warrior's brute strength, must go about it in a decidedly more tactical fashion.
This does not even take into account the out-of-combat storylines that will be available. If Palpatine is the archetype for the Sith Inquisitor, then we have already seen a brilliant example of how deep and complex an Inquisitor can be when fully realized.
I imagine an Inquisitor will be every bit as colorful as the Warrior, only tinged more with political intrigue. While Sith Warriors like Darth Vader would likely be hated because they directly caused the destruction and deaths of many, an Inquisitor like Palpatine - who was every bit as ruthless, and more - would be reviled because he masterminded the scheme that led to the destruction.
I look at Darth Vader and Palpatine and I couldn't imagine two storylines that were more different; I expect more of the same from Star Wars: The Old Republic.
- View User Profile
- View Posts
- Send Message
Posted 12/3/2009 3:06:13 PMThe Consular, as the name implies could be the more "diplomatic" Jedi. Dealing in political intrigue, weather it be suring up the shaky relations between the Jedi Order and the Republic Senate or, ferreting out traitors within the Senate. He could also be dispatched to border worlds thinking of secceding from the Republic to the Empire to negotiate a settlement. Only to find the Empire has beaten him to the punch. Think the very first Clone Wars episode with Yoda trying to negotiate with the Toyadarian King, only to have a wrench thrown in the works by Asajj Ventress showing up.
No, my concerns around having 4 force users were simply about wanting two more non-Jedi/non-Sith classes. If I can come up with those vastly different storylines so quickly, Imagine what BioWare's team of writers can do. The Story is the least of my concerns about these classes. My concerns by the way, like Dover and Sado's are lessened after all of the new info, but still there. I agree with the "cautiously optimistic" appraisal.
- View User Profile
- View Posts
- Send Message
Posted 12/3/2009 3:12:44 PM- View User Profile
- View Posts
- Send Message
Posted 12/3/2009 9:47:45 AM- View User Profile
- View Posts
- Send Message
Posted 12/3/2009 9:01:40 AMI'm just more excited now to keep getting additional information on the specific abilities of the classes. We got a little taste in your SI and JC posts, but I would like to see what trees they split off into and what other abilties they will have.
- View User Profile
- View Posts
- Send Message
Posted 12/3/2009 8:49:55 AM