The scope of games in the MMO genre draws players of every ilk by offering a plethora of play experiences. Be it PVE or PVP, Solo or Group, Casual or Hardcore, people commonly gravitate to a particular style and are known to defend their affinity vigorously; the Star Wars: The Old Republic community is a perfect example of this diversity. This week, we take a closer look at those who prefer a very solitary style, and what they hope to find once they reach endgame content.
Several weeks ago, Dreavus started a topic on the official forums that quickly grew to epic size. Titled The True Extent of the Solo Ride, it took about a day and a half for the topic to reach the maximum size limit of 1,000 posts. The second iteration of the topic took longer, it was nearly a week until the third version was needed. Dreavus's initial post is essentially a request that BioWare include endgame content for soloers in Star Wars: The Old Republic. In it, he says:
BioWare. I'm tired of beating around the bush with you. The question is this: I want to be the lone hero of the Galaxy. I want to be able to take on player-enemies and actually stand a chance if I solo'd the game and they did it with a group. I want to win them with skill, and I don't want to lose simply because his gear is higher than mine even though it's the same item level, but one is solo and one is a raid item.
Are you going to give me this opportunity? Are you going to allow me to obtain player versus player gear on par with raid/instanced pvp gear that I don't have to earn by grinding with these people? Or is the true extent of the solo ride only meant for leveling, and not end-game content such as world pvp?
It's a fair question to ask. Dreavus is only one of many people to express a dislike of grouped content at endgame, particularly when that group content is the only way to progress. MeeeeZ everything, solo = nothing, as it's in most MMOs." Many, many others threw in their two cents (as you might imagine, given over 2500 posts at the time of writing), and a large number of the posters were self-proclaimed soloers.
However, there were plenty of negative responses to the idea of endgame content for soloers as well. Many see raids and group PvP to be more deserving of rewards and developer time than solo content. Therumancer spoke to the former view with "Someone who has put in more time than you, or played at a higher level (dealing with the whole "Raid" thing) is of course going to wind up with a more powerful character," while Golashion summed up the latter by saying "I would think it [tiered solo PvE challenges and 1v1 arenas] would be VERY difficult to implement and many game makers would question doing so at all because after all it's the minority view."
Still others felt Therumancer's point was founded on shaky ground. Inarai, in particular, objected pretty strongly to the idea that group content is more difficult than solo content:
The point that you're missing is that raid/large-group content isn't inherently more difficult than solo or small group content. The challenges are different, certainly, and I don't think many (if any) MMO's have really tried to challenge solo players, but the point remains.
People act like it should be taken as fact that raiding is and always shall be higher level content than anything else because of group size. They should really stop doing that; it's without sufficient basis.
There is no reason, at all, for there not to be challenging small-group/solo content that exists as viable end-game content with competitive rewards.
There were questions about what form this challenging small group and solo content should take, particularly given that different classes have strengths where others have weaknesses, making balancing content potentially quite difficult. Spymaster developed a fairly comprehensive answer to the question of "how do you make solo content hard for all classes?":
By designing solo content around the things that make solo play hard. Make the solo player work his way slowly through an unforgiving maze of enemy NPCs, where one false move means certain death.
Each fight should bring you down to very close to zero health, with fast respawns, so you can't rest for more then the minimum time it takes to get your HP back. This would make every fight hard enough so that you can't make a single mistake in any fight. Fast respawns also make it impossible to run, so one mistake = death.
Add in roaming adds that circulate the area in random paths, so you'd have to constantly watch your back at all times. Throw in some bosses and other mobs you CAN'T beat, so knowing which mobs to avoid, and where and when it's safe to fight becomes very important.
Make the encounter random, so that mobs and objectives are never in the same exact spot. Items you have to search for, in very hard to see locations, making the quest totally unlearnable.
Second, when you're populating the area, you fill it with mobs that have many different strengths and weaknesses. Some are killable by DPS spec Jedi, others are killable by tanks, etc. Since each mob is balanced to be beatable by only a certain spec, you can balance those fights to be challenging even for the class they are meant for. The ones made for other classes, you can't kill. They need to be completely avoided, which forces every class / spec to watch his back, know what they can and can't beat, and do it fast before the adds come around the corner.
Regardless of the particular mechanics of the content, many forum-goers clearly felt that there should be some sort of endgame content specifically for people who like to solo in Star Wars: The Old Republic; a poll by ninjashikamaru entitled "Do you want solo endgame content, in addition to standard forms of endgame?" showed (at the time of writing) more than twice as many respondents favoring "A new form of challenging solo endgame content (solo equivalent of a raid)" over "I'm fine with the current announced endgame model of raids, PvP, flashpoints, and crafting."
One of the most contentious parts of the solo endgame discussion was loot. Many echoed Therumancer's feelings that soloers do not deserve loot of the same quality as raiders and group PvPers, while others pointed out that crafting seems like a path to endgame-quality loot. Many soloers, however, were interested in solo-specific loot, with different stats and appearance. Nagadeath explained this, saying
I dont[sic] want 'raid' gear I want solo gear used to progeress[sic] a difficult solo endgame. Raid gear is too focused in on one aspect of the game. As in dps raid gear is only good for dps. What I want for the solo gear is a even mix of stats equal to raid gear in item level but distributed differently.
For instance say a raid item has 200 str and critical strike+ on it. A solo piece should have 100 str 100 vit and a bonus to healing effect to cut down on down time between fights. That's what I have been asking for in most of these solo vs raid threads.
The difference in gear itemization that Nagadeath brings also applies to class build. While a DPS character in a raid can afford to maximize dps skills and ignore those that don't apply directly to killing things as quickly as possible, a solo-focused character will often choose to adopt a more balanced approach, eschewing (for example) a bit more damage for an increase in survivability. At PAX East, Daniel Erickson told us that these hybrid sorts of builds are quite viable in Star Wars: The Old Republic when he said "when I go Inquisitor healing path, I don't put it all in there. I don't actually go dedicated. I actually find it works really well for how I play to maybe bring my healer CC, for me, and then do a little bit of healing on there, and then actually go a little more like, let's do some damage and get to stay in the fight."
Personally, I really enjoy raiding. I like the feeling of being part of a team that's working together to accomplish something bigger than all of us. At the same time, I love the solo component of the leveling process. I've played around with some extreme soloing in various games, notably in WoW with a hunter and in LotRO with a warden. Both playstyles appeal to me, and I know that there is a good bit of skill that goes into each of them. I see no harm in a solo path in the endgame, as long as there is also ample encouragement for people to group.
An emphasis on grouping is very important to an MMO because, in many cases, it is the social aspect that keeps people subscribed and logging in far longer than they would if they were purely solo. I know that I've logged into games weekly on game night long after they ceased to be any fun, purely because I had plans with friends. In many ways, social interaction is the bait that keeps us coming back to our MMOs, which is why social activities like raiding and group PvP have traditionally gotten more attention than solo endgame content. There are other ways to ensure a feeling of community among players than forcing them to group, though; crafting, the auction house, minigames, and in-game events can all help bring players together.
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Posted 11/29/2011 10:06:56 AMI would be very glad if there was some kind of solo-endgame stuff. I would just love to have the challenge. As far as being rewarded for time spent playing, I always put a lot of time into my games. 7 FemShep's through ME and ME2, 4 Wardens in DAO, 4 FemHawkes and now I have my first little mage in Skyrim. I have dabbled a little in "the other game" but it didn't really catch me the way SWTOR did when I played the beta. Will probably play all the classes to see the stories.
I do not like playing in the big groups, it's just too much stress and for me the joy of gaming disapperas when it is only about killing mobs as fast as possible and not about the story. The 2-ppl-groups worked very well. It is easier for me to find someone who plays the game the same way as me then. I just say " I like to watch cutscenes and try to see as much as possible of every place" and people know if they want to group with me or not. The best part in "the other game" was always just running around the game with hubby tackling everything just the two of us. We still talk about that gaming-time and exploration. It felt much more lively and I was more part of the fight personally then. Like working in a small company, then you get to do everything but when you work in a big company you only specialize in one task.Not saying that that is the way it is for everyone, it is only how it feels for me. Still helped out people when they got stuck waiting for to long in que or if a friend was a healer short because the babysitter couldn't that eveing. But it just wasn't that fun. Have tried dps also but it's still pretty much the same with the bigger groups. Stress but no happy-gaming-feeling, I don't feel personally invested when gaming that way. Had some fun going back to older instances and soloing them, it was worth it because I could get a nice pet. The gear is no longer worth anything.
If there is something for solo-players then that would be the thing I do after work, just playing a little to relax, some crafting perhaps but also something challenging gamewise.Make me work my class, learn to play her better. Then in the weekend I can do something in 2ppl-groups or perhaps 4ppl-groups with friends. People like different things I guess, being reduced to only collecting and crafting solo doesn't really sound like fun. And I don't want über-gear, just something a bit better, (and perhaps nicer looking) than the usual questing gear. Make me work for a new recepie for my Jedi Consular, or a new gem with nice color. I love killing monsters and questing. I just prefer it in smaller groups or solo. If there is such content I will continue trying to master new things after reaching max-lvl. Otherwise it might be a repeat of "the other MMO". I reach max-lvl and then play less and less, qutting after a while.
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Posted 6/13/2011 6:52:43 PMSo when someone tells me that raider content should always have *10%* more power for doing it than someone who tackles easier or solo content or that the top pvpers should have *X%* stronger because they are the good players than the weekend solo pvper... Then they tell me: well what would be the point if it didn't... I seriously question that. I don't think the gears power needs to be the carrot on the stick for the players to strive and achieve.
For pvp I think the middleground is where you force players into some small group pvp but at the same time don't reward those that are the most successful with all the power. It keeps the contest aspect alive and in that respect it's why I enjoyed for example how WoW managed the latest arena season, and I disliked pretty much most of the previous ones.
In Pve, I think the realistic middle ground for dealing with things such as difficulty and production costs is to go away from huge raids, and if they decide to include 20+ raids you keep the rewards from being anything but straight up power. Making Solo content 8 times is difficult, however I think some middle ground can be found with smaller 4 to 12 groups and it shouldn't need to feel like it's a kiddy pool to the guys coming out of the bigger raids.
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Posted 6/7/2011 9:07:20 PMI agree 100% with Sado. If solo Raids go in, group Raids become unnecessary from a competitive & gear point of view.
I was listening to Dover describe what it was like to get a certain weapon and also I think Sleeper to get a certain mount. To me that is your Solo endgame. Why not have few things like this to do endgame. Not mention integrating solo-crafting with Raid content similar to what Vanguard tried to do.
There are so many solo endgame sandbox possibilities. They are really endless. Epic solo quest lines, housing, crafting, harvesting. All of this can be integrated into endgame somehow WITHOUT solo Raids.
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Posted 6/3/2011 5:06:14 PM- View User Profile
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Posted 6/1/2011 3:11:36 PMWhen we play a single player RPG and get to the end of the story we don't stand there waiting for the game to generate more story for us. We start a new character to try something different and start over. We can adjust the dificulty and change our characters sex, class, morality and play the game again. We'll be able to do this in TOR as well. We can adjust the solo dificulty any time we want by putting away our companion or running heroic quests and flashpoints solo.
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Posted 6/1/2011 4:42:52 PM- View User Profile
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Posted 5/31/2011 8:51:43 PMLOL! MMO.... all it means is that it is a Very Large Online game with a bunch of people playing it. It does not mean that it is a Very Large Online game that you have to group to enjoy endgame. That was just brought around by WoW. New life needs to be breathed into the genre. It is getting stale. I think having full raids, small group raids (2 - 5 people) and solo raids with different gear with different focuses in stats is a good start to freshing up MMO's as a whole. Just because you are running Solo do not make it any less an MMO. The game will still be huge and there will still be a butt tonne of people playing it online.
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Posted 6/1/2011 2:05:42 PMIt simply won't happen in a MMO. While you laugh at the comment of "It's am MMO. Massive Multiplayer Online Game. You want to solo, get a solo RPG!" the underlying reasoning of development is that they are appealing to the masses - not the few. And it makes no sense to build limited content when they could be building content for everyone else. It's all about the money.
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Posted 5/31/2011 3:28:38 AMBecause of that model I played WoW for a very short time enough to start the end game raiding and hit that boring wall. The most fun I had is hitting group zones with me and a buddy and find a way to low man it.
The best MMO I have played for my play style was and is City of Heroes, because you can up the level of your missions for solo or group play. Also no "gear". They did add recipes to boost powers, which gave it an open market. But never had to sit around waiting to get picked up or not cause of gear score.
I hope SWToR follows the movie model and not the WoW model. Movie: Luke with R2 and Han with Chewie.
Luke and Han as players and R2 and Chewie as their plus ones. They tackle the Death Star fight off throngs of troopers and escape with the mission done. WoW: 10-20 Lukes and Hans and plus ones. Raid the Death Star. 4 hour crawl through troopers that take 10,000 hits to kill get to the mega boss that wipes the raid at least once, and roll for some boots, fail and do it again next week and the next week and etc...
In the Star Wars did Luke go head to head with Vader, hell yeah! But the rebels did attack Death Star in mass, and I bet they got better gear for it too. We can have both
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Posted 5/29/2011 4:59:40 AMHonestly end game crafting is a joke. The only way to get end game recipes is to run raids. So i don't quite understand how that is solo play?
Having been in a few guilds for raiding when I used to have a lot of free time and then when I didn't. I understand peoples frustrations when they talk about dragging other people thru a raid just to lose on a roll or a ridiculous dkp system that kept you from loot. And don't get me started on pug raids that require absurd gear scores, which I hope Bioware doesn't include in this game.
I see that balancing gear is a concern to many also but saying "running a raid is more difficult then running a solo raid is harder so we should get better gear" isn't a real argument. That's like saying "you should get better gear since you can pvp all day and you can kill people easy." Just some more backwards thinking that doesn't make sense. What makes a mmo is to get as many people that you can to play and fill the awesome looking world with different and diverse characters.
The idea of a single or more interesting 2 man raid is very intriguing. Just think of you and a buddy battling thru a star destroyer filled if guards, droids, and crazy character bosses. Just like in the movies.
Setting up another branch to the endgame tree by adding solo content would be groundbreaking as having random rift events opening up game content.
Many people should look at the ideas of possible solo "raids" as a new and unique opportunity to expand and create totally new game play experience in a mmo. And maybe have some fun while they play it.
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Posted 5/30/2011 3:51:14 PMFrom a balancing standpoint, if you want something challenging that would force even the most skilled player to have to work and likely die several times before completing the mission, it has to be designed assuming the player has a certain set of skills as well as a certain combination of skill and worthy gear. This means you have to design one for each class, and that's a lot of development time for content that each targets only roughly 1/8 of the population.
The only other way to combat that is to develop some gimmick that requires guile to figure out, but then the strategy for that would be available online quicker than a fly on crap, making the content trivial again. The difference between this situation in a single-player game and an MMO is that the people who decide to not check out the online guide are at a disadvantage in other arenas of the game when they inevitably do come across other players.
The most important thing that needs to be taken away from this is that it is *not* easy to just whip up some solo content that is as difficult as end-game group content in a way that is not easily exploitable. There has yet to be a practical idea put forth that sounds fun and/or challenging at all. The fact is that in an online game, whether it's an MMO or an FPS or whatever, you get rewarded for cooperation with teammates because it's what the game is designed for. It's also more difficult and dynamic to cooperate and rely on others. You get rewarded for the accomplishment of everyone working together.
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Posted 5/29/2011 2:13:37 AM- View User Profile
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Posted 5/28/2011 5:56:18 PMIf maximizing your rewards aren't what you play for, then doesn't the many options for playing your own Star Wars story with decisions that carry weight offer something that other MMOs haven't?
Even understanding that there is a difference in ideologies, from a developer standpoint, it does not make sense to spend resources on something that a minority will do. The only high-level solo content that even sounds fun, balanced and challenging would be to have class-specific solo quests. However, they'd have to tailor it to each class, of course. This would require more development time just so that roughly 1/8 of the population can enjoy that content at max-level in comparison to the content they already have at 1-50 for each class. It makes much more sense to have elite-level small group content so that way the vast majority of players can enjoy the content without having the crazy time commitment of raids.
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Posted 5/31/2011 8:32:10 AM- View User Profile
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Posted 6/1/2011 4:34:14 AM