Romantic arcs are integral to BioWare's game design style. This is true all the way from Baldur's Gate II to Mass Effect 3, and Star Wars: The Old Republic is no different. By giving our companions gifts and picking the appropriate dialog choices, we may gain enough affection to pursue a romance with them. This process also leads to additional quests given by the companion and a richer understanding of who that companion is. However, this romance system isnt without its controversy, especially when it is concerning the romance arcs of the Jedi Knight and the Jedi Consular.
BioWare announced that pursuing a romance as either a Jedi Knight or a Jedi Consular will result in our characters gaining dark side alignment points. This announcement has obviously caused a lot of distress in the official forums. BioWare is taking the stance established in the Star Wars prequel films, specifically Episode II: Attack of the Clones. The film established that the Jedi Order forbids romantic relationships, as it is a form of attachment. The Jedi believe attachment can lead to the dark side. In an interview we conducted during last year's Jedi Immersion Day, Daniel Erickson expands on this concept:
When you follow the Dark side as a Jedi, what it means is that you've given into your emotions. You gave into the hate, and even the love. One of the things you got to see today with Tython is that there is an entire quest in there to introduce the concept of romance leading to the Dark side. It is absolutely forbidden in the Jedi to get married and to have romance. According to the rules, you can get married with permission, but it very rarely happens and you basically have to prove to them that you don't particularly care about the other person. So it is complicated, and usually done to protect Force bloodlines.
To provide a counterpoint to this logic, Alesul started a thread a couple of months ago. "Romance. To make a point Bioware.." is already at 92 pages and counting. He starts by saying:
Okay. There are threads about this but Bioware has to see that giving DS points for romancing is really a bad idea. They are contradicting themselves. Let me quote the wise Jolee Bindo:
"Love doesn't lead to the dark side. Passion can lead to rage and fear, and can be controlled, but passion is not the same thing as love. Controlling your passions while being in love, that's what they should teach you to beware, but love itself will save, not condemn you."
Straight from Kotor 1. And if I remember correctly at some point in the game he tells us that he had a wife (not sure about wife) or that he was in love as well. Is he a dark jedi? No. He is not.
Please Bioware consider this because I don't want to be left out of a part of this magnificent game because I want to roll a lightside Jedi.
He points out that in Knights of the Old Republic, BioWare reasoned a way for Jedi to be able to be in a romantic relationship and still resist forming attachments. Although Jolee Bindo's wife did fall to the dark side, there are other examples. Alesul again offers another example, building on what DavidForce had to say:
Originally Posted by DavidForce
I tottaly agree with you. however like in Kotor if you get a few darkside points there is still plenty of chances to get lightside points to make it up so i think you will be able to have romance and still be light.
Still i agree with your main point Passion-condems love-saves
Anakin couldnt control his anger at the lose of his mother and theatened lose of padme but it was his love for his son that saved him and brought him back to the light.
Exactly! And also there is Nomi Sunrider who was also in love and did not fall to the darkside.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Nomi_Sunrider
I know it would be probably possible to get those Ls points back but the whole concept doesn't feel right. And what if you can't get them back? It's a very bad idea to say the least.
Ulic Qel-Droma and Nomi Sunrider in love.
Nomi Sunrider was not only married to a Jedi before her training, but she loved her daughter and also fell in love with Ulic Qel-Droma. Ulic did fall to the dark side, but not because of his relationship with Nomi. In fact, it was this love coupled with his guilt for killing his brother, Cay Qel-Droma that brought him back to the light. However, Blackmun defends BioWare's decision by saying:
It makes perfect sense. Plus, BioWare has to put in a lot of options for both DS and LS points.
Why do people care so much about this? It's not like making one or two dark side decisions is going to stop you from playing a light sided character.
If anything, the idea of only taking light side (or dark side) options is highly unrealistic.Originally Posted by Alesul
I know it would be probably possible to get those Ls points back but the whole concept doesn't feel right. And what if you can't get them back? It's a very bad idea to say the least.
There is no "getting back" involved.
You collect both light side and dark side points. The balance of this gives you a "ranking". If you have a lot of LS and a few DS, you're going towards the light. Vice versa.
There are no single decisions alone that brings you particularly far towards either side. It will take substantial time and effort to "max out" either one. You will have a mix of both LS and DS points throughout your journey unless you play completely unrealistic.
This brings up an excellent point. If pursuing a romance as a Jedi, just how many dark side points will you get? Also, you can take into account the Diplomacy crew skill. You can effectively counteract any dark side points accrued while participating in a romance option by sending a companion on several Diplomacy missions. Grimhand goes on to say how futile it is to quote a character that is no longer affiliated with the Jedi Order and how a romance can slowly lead to the dark side:
Bindo's views are not in line with he Order's.
You are a member of the Jedi Order...
Using a Bindo quote is pointless, you aren't being taught by Bindo. Also it is Bindo's personal view/idea of the Force.
It isn't contradictory, in fact it is consistent.
As for whether or not dark side points should be gained. You are a member of the Jedi Order, and you know it is wrong, and you are willingly going against the Order for what is mostly a selfish reason. It doesn't make you instantly Dark, but decisions against the Order can slowly lead you down that path regardless if their/your intent.
Besides we don't know the STORY behind the romance arcs for the Jedi, and remember a dark side Jedi is NOT a Sith nor is it pure evil in SW:TOR.
I think we should all wait to see how the writers have handled everything before we whine.
Wedding of Anakin Skywalker and Padme Amidala
Grimhand makes an excellent argument. There is still a lot we don't know as far as the context of these romances as they relate to the larger story. While not every Jedi that is in a romantic relationship falls to the dark side, this is definitely the case for Anakin Skywalker. It was his love for Padme Amidala and his defiance of the Jedi Council that led to his transformation into Darth Vader. It is this relationship in particular which BioWare seems to be basing their view of Jedi romance in the game. Infir then provides this counterpoint:
An action being against the Jedi Code is not necessarily the same as it being "dark side". Man-made laws can be wrong. Love itself is not inherently "dark side", only certain potential consequences of it. I agree that romance as a Jedi should not automatically lead to dark side points - only if one takes it to certain extremes.
Certainly, there is some truth to that. What a society deems to be "evil" is not always so; it all depends on the context. The light side of the Force is only what the Jedi Order interprets it to be. It will be interesting to see if this philosophy plays any part in the Jedi story, or even the Sith story. Is it necessarily true that if a romance gives the Jedi dark side points, that the Sith will be given light side points? The Sith Empire practices eugenics and the propagation of the species. Falling in love is technically against the Sith Empire's doctrine.
In my opinion, BioWare must handle these romance arcs carefully. To prevent someone from experiencing a part of the game simply because they want to develop their character a certain way is unfair. If the writers can somehow juggle pursuing a relationship and at the same time resist attachment, then I believe the stories can greatly benefit from having this type of dynamic. This will give our decisions more contexts so when we do give in to temptation, the dark side points we get will not only make sense but seem intuitive.
To understand why there is so much turmoil over this concept, we need to consider the appeal of the Jedi. Jedi have a certain mystique to them. They represent the best qualities of Star Wars. A shining light in a dark, bleak galaxy filled with scoundrels and criminals. Therefore, Jedi belong to a higher standard. A Jedi must be infallible, unwavering, unstoppable and immortal. The fact that they aren't provides the basis for their immense popularity. Love is one of our most basic and powerful emotions. For the Jedi to fight back this emotion, knowing what they risk by giving in, presents a dichotomy that makes them very interesting. There is no emotion, there is peace.
- View User Profile
- View Posts
- Send Message
Posted 10/13/2011 4:51:00 PMThe Jedi Code says:
There is no Emotion, there is Peace
There is no Ignorance, there is Knowledge
There is no Passion, there is Serenity
There is no Chaos, there is Harmony
There is no Death, there is The Force
The Sith code says:
Peace is a lie, there is only Passion
through Passion I gain Strength
through Strength I gain Power
through Power I gain Victory
through Victory my Chains are Broken
The Force shall free me.
If you look at Romance that is Emotions wich can become Passion that violates both line 1 and 3 of the Jedi Code. Passion is where the Sith Code starts at. But a relationship can be only Emotions. Therefore you wouldn't fall to the Dark Side as a Jedi if you choose to follow that as long you don't let it evolve to passion, you should be fine and only violate the code once. But you still violate the code therefore you disobey your vow and your masters which will lead to Dark Side points. But if you be honest and make right for yourself with meditation and doing good deeds. You will show that you can be in love and still keep going on the path of Light.
Is it only I who thinks like this?
Anyway that's about it.
Imperial Agent: Check,Trooper: Check,Bounty Hunter: Check,Smuggler: Check!!Who needs force powers when you got a Blaster at your side.
- View User Profile
- View Posts
- Send Message
Posted 10/8/2011 7:27:58 AMit can't be this way. They can only write so many stories. I'm sorry some people want a love story for a Jedi that is based on light side decisions, not dark side, but it would be unfair for players not to know which love stories would give light side points and which would give dark side points, and the writers can't write both for all relationships. You just need to enjoy the stories that they have provided for you. stop being greedy.
- View User Profile
- View Posts
- Send Message
Posted 10/7/2011 9:51:39 PM- View User Profile
- View Posts
- Send Message
Posted 10/7/2011 7:02:02 AMSo, maybe the Jedi Order is wrong about their law against love. It's not like that law always existed - there have been times in history, when the Jedi Order officially endorsed relationships amongst Jedi.
So why did they forbid it again? I don't know. Maybe their statistics clearly showed that falls to the dark side had grown in number, as a result of allowing relationships. Seems plausible, since there's a lot of crime related to love, jealousy and similar emotions in real life.
So the anti-romance rule of the Order must not be entirely correct. After all the Order is not equivalent to the light side. They don't even always agree on every topic. In the end it's only some sort of more or less bureaucratic decision, that has been made for some reason. As a disciple of the order you are supposed to follow their rules.
Now if you intentionally break the rules of the order, if you do something you are forbidden - you question the authority of the order, and of your master.
Now actually believing that your master or the order might be wrong about something should not gain you dark side points. Even confronting them about it, and starting an official discussion about whether the rule should stay or go, should be something not considered dark side an any way.
But not talking about it, and secretly breaking the rule - and possibly lying about it to your master - there's nothing wrong with gaining a few dark side points for that. Even if you don't lie about your relationship, you still were dishonest for not discussing that issue earlier.
So if someone has a problem with the rules of the council, and cannot live by that rules, he should state that from the beginning, which would possibly not allow them to become a Jedi of the Order in the first place.
Vowing to keep the rules of the Order, knowing that you don't believe in some of them, actually disagree with them, is very dishonest. Even if the Rules are wrong, it is dishonest to make that vow without actually believing and agreeing to it.
So actually, any Jedi of Order who has not made a false vow actually has to agree to the Order's view against relationships and personally believe that this is right.
And should find themself in a rather though position, if they happened to fall in love - and then changing their former opinion about relationships.
But is it really light side to change your opinion, to change your own beliefs, to break your vow because you want to lay someone? Or should you get dark side points for that?
- View User Profile
- View Posts
- Send Message
Posted 10/8/2011 7:22:21 AMa dark side point doesn't mean anything on its own, but the accumilation of many do, and so if you keep lying about it and breaking your vow, soon your word means nothing and you are no better than a sith.
- View User Profile
- View Posts
- Send Message
Posted 10/7/2011 7:42:27 AM- View User Profile
- View Posts
- Send Message
Posted 10/7/2011 4:01:43 AM- View User Profile
- View Posts
- Send Message
Posted 10/7/2011 4:00:51 AMFear of losing control of ones emotions, of one self and falling towards darkness.
They really are no different than Sith.
Sith seek to control through fear while Jedi seek to control out of fear.
Jedi are delusional.
- View User Profile
- View Posts
- Send Message
Posted 10/7/2011 7:39:40 AM- View User Profile
- View Posts
- Send Message
Posted 10/7/2011 6:30:25 AMWhat you are saying is true from a scued point of view, however when dealing with reality there are concquences and reminding people of how their actions have an impact is not to strike fear for the intent of striking fear but to have a system that deals with reality and bring balance to that reality.
It would be the same as saying that the government has a prison system and they use that to strike fear, black mail, extort, entrapment, etc. That is not the case, they have a power and responsibility and that reponsibility has to deal with the dark side of reality of how people can be bad.
If people were good then they will never experience the bad side of the government. Same with the order and the responsibility of a force user who is wielding a lot of power.
We say governments are good, if they are westernized with freedom, justice and equality. However there are certain criterias which contradict that. For exmaple ideas which turn into actions which are harmful to the existing systems of power, which are the best systems of power, but not in the opinion of the dissenters. So therefore in certain circumstances even freedom of expression can be dangerous and should be controlled if it poses a threat. If a government regualtes freedom of expression to stop people from becoming extremists and help the other people enjoy a good and secure life, is that unethical?
- View User Profile
- View Posts
- Send Message
Posted 10/7/2011 3:19:16 AMBut love is also altruistic and greatly caring, which leads to geuinely positive acts. However, we do those things for the selfish reason that is called gratification. We feel good when we do things for the people we care for. But I don't think that is the reason the Jedi Order is against it. Mind you, Jolee Bindo is a Grey Knight, so using him as an argument is folly. He might be right, but that doesn't make his reasons right for the Jedi Order. He has personally conquered love by seperating the bits and pieces of it, but is that something everyone is capable of?
I believe that is the question the Jedi Order is faced with. Even a few fallen Jedi can become a galaxy of pain, just look at Revan and Malak and the results of their war on the Republic. So like a sugeon that removes a tumor, the Jedi Order has cut off some healthy tissue because it MIGHT lead to a great deal of pain for everyone else. The sacrifices of the few are worth it, especially when they have already given themselves up for eternal purity. Thus asking the Jedi to not form romances is a logical step in the face of the disasters it can otherwise lead to.
Anyway, I see the Light as more Purity than Good, and the Dark as Corruption. Corruption leads to evil mostly, but you can be corrupt without being outwardly evil. You can be Dark and still do acts of kindness, of hope and good. They are rare, but they have happened. Meanwhile, you can be Pure but incredibly evil as well. Case in point being Jorus C'Baoth. He was an evil Jedi, seeking to create a Jediocracy away from the Order (which he thought was wrong on not taking direct control of the Republic). He was Light until he was finally pushed over the edge, only then did he fall, despite his constant cruelty, autocracy and rather evil ways. He was evil enough for people to still institute anti-Forceuser laws 50 years after his death. Yet, he did not fall until minutes before his death.
The Order and the Jedi are not Good, they are mostly good, but they are Pure, and that is what they seek.
When the player Jedi seeks a romance, he/she willingly disobey tenets the Order has put in place. And for selfish reasons. The simple act of going against one of the most basic Jedi teachings is in itself enough to to drive people towards the Dark, as it lead to even more emotions like bad contience in an ever widening circle (lying and then lying about lying etc). So even if the persons involved wouldn't actually touch the dark side at all due to their romance, their actions leading to it, and maintaining it, would. In a sense the Jedi Order has created a bit of a black hole in regards to romances.
Seeing the many big comments, but very few replies to them, I'm sure few of us have actually read them all. :D
Charming... yes? http://imgur.com/r6WrI
- View User Profile
- View Posts
- Send Message
Posted 10/7/2011 4:15:10 AM- View User Profile
- View Posts
- Send Message
Posted 10/7/2011 4:06:54 AMYou make a good point about purity, and the Jedi code is an allusion to the struggle of religious leaders maintaining their roles under strainig circumstances. Such as a person vowing celibacy. Not everyone can do that, but it sets an example of commitment and those kind of examples of purity motivate others to also be pure or more to the order that they believe in. If I see someone making great sacrifices for an idea then it makes people aware, and something like the story of Jesus and his sacrifice is very inspirational to the believer.
So similarily the Code leads by example of being pure which is not easy, but important to make those believe in something and act on it that will guide them as a light force user.
- View User Profile
- View Posts
- Send Message
Posted 10/7/2011 7:29:36 AM- View User Profile
- View Posts
- Send Message
Posted 10/7/2011 9:13:15 AMAltruistic behvior is about helping others and not yourself. However helping others also helps you feel better which means altruistic behavior can still be egoistic. If you don't agree then you should use a different word since it implies something quite pure, or you could define it better by saying you mean the more refined altruistic definition which has been atlered to be more fitting for human behavior.
Its semantics.
However the argument is that even altruisitc behavior can lead to egiostic tendencies, which involve emotion. Therefore I am pointing out on the opposite of the spectrum how people can become ultra purists by trying to help but feel that thier effort to help is not enough and therefore go beyond what is normal and forces others into the same practice as them while not being able to fit in, and it creates more problems by not being so tolerant. An anti to a 'live and let live' philosophy.
edit: Maybe I should add that being an egoist is not necessarily a bad thing. And also trying to not feel some kind of personal benefit of being good is also difficult.
Since the ego, is 'I' and in my opinion someone without an idenitity, or does not care for one, who has no 'I' can be a non-egoist.
Anyways it is argued that they are opposite, since when looking egoism they look at it from a certain perspective that is completely selfish. It seems that the people trying to define the difference between altruism and egoism at first were looking at it by principle and not from a human perspective. I am pointing out from the principle, being a good one to be altruistic, still can be egoistical as well in a human perspective.