In recent months, BioWare developers finally began sharing information about their take on raids, which they call Operations. BioWare announced details about the different group sizes and the loot distribution system for normal-mode operations, both of which will have great impact on what raiding will be like in Star Wars: The Old Republic. What do these details mean for those of us who plan on raiding in TOR?
This past summer at Gamescom, several interviews featured Gabe Amatangelo. In one particular interview with Darth Hater, he reaffirmed that Star Wars: The Old Republic will feature both 8 and 16-player Operations.
At the same time, I wanted to do it as a puzzle with co-op 8 to 16-player mode, and just take it in that direction to see how players responded to it and explore more with it.
There are many good reasons for including multiple raid sizes, but the most prevalent is to make sure BioWare is meeting player's expectations. World of Warcraft features two raid sizes, and the vast majority of people planning on playing TOR have, without a doubt, spent some time playing WoW. This creates pre-existing expectations for TOR, originating with its main competitor. If BioWare failed to include two raid sizes, there would almost certainly be a negative response from the community.
The fact that there is more than one raid size will give people choices, obviously, and I think that familiar behavior patterns are going to emerge. The smaller raid will be much easier to organize due to the smaller number of schedules to line up, while the larger raid will require much more group coordination due to a greater number of people having to perform correctly in response to raid mechanics. As a result, casual players are going to favor the 8-player raids, while those looking to raid more seriously will favor 16-player raids. Theoretically, this will keep both groups happy.
Offering two raid sizes is a smart move to cater to the largest number of players possible, but I feel that an 8-player raid is going to feel really small, especially with the large environments we've seen so far in screenshots and videos of the Eternity Vault. It's going to be very important that both raids have similar feelings of "epicness" and difficulty. If anyone perceives either raid size as easier than the other, BioWare will have to act quickly to combat the appearance of not being prepared to launch the game.
In the same interview, Amatangelo mentioned that BioWare is experimenting with a system that they call "loot containers." When a group defeats a boss on normal mode, players will receive their own bag of loot.
In the normal mode -- the kind of entry mode -- we're doing the loot containers that give everyone a chance. The idea is that it isn't requiring a hard-core guild on Vent to distribute stuff. It is casual; it is pickup and sort of a stepping-stone. The loot containers serve that purpose well.
The idea has some merit, because with this system in place players will not end up playing for weeks without receiving loot. However, this system brings its own potential for complaints. We don't know how much loot each boss drops, but if we use the loot from other MMOs as a basis, it's unlikely that each boss will drop more than one or two pieces of loot for every class. If this is the case, anyone who raids on normal mode could theoretically get all of the loot there is for him or her in as little as two weeks.
Some people might say that this isn't a problem. However, for a lot of people, getting loot is one of the only reasons to raid. If normal mode raids offer no incentive for a large portion of the player base after less than a month and heroic raids are extremely difficult, players may burn out. The experience of killing raid bosses just isn't enough for most players.
If people burn out soon after hitting maximum level, both the TOR community and BioWare's reputation will suffer for it. After such a long testing cycle, people won't have much patience for things that aren't working perfectly.
With two and a half full months left until launch, there is more than enough time for BioWare to change simple game systems, but not something as significant as Operation size. Changing Operation size would potentially require changes to boss health, boss damage, ability animations and boss room size. Having a 12-man raid probably wouldn't feel right to most people, since it's an odd number of groups, and a 16-man operation is too big to consider as a small raid. Therefore, 8 and 16-man operations are all but set in stone.
Loot distribution is more easily fixed. I think the idea of having every boss drop tokens, specific to each boss, would work much better. For example, Boss A drops two tokens per kill, which all classes can redeem at an Operation vendor. Each boss would drop different tokens that players use to purchase items from only that boss' loot table. By using this system, you make sure that players don't acquire loot too quickly, resulting in burnout. However, you also keep people from raiding week after week and not getting any loot, since everyone in the raid will get an item they need every week and eventually not need any loot.
I'm looking forward to operations in Star Wars: The Old Republic, but I'm definitely keeping my hopes from getting too high. There are many things BioWare will have to do correctly right out of the gate, since the community will be ravenously tearing through the content as fast as possible. Glitches and imperfect gameplay don't matter as much to me, especially soon after launch. However, if top guilds race to maximum level and do nothing but talk negatively about operation content, I'm not sure how much of the more casual community will stick around to find out for themselves.
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Posted 10/11/2011 6:46:32 PMMake sure u make armor worth more so it take more then 6-8 months to get all the max armor while still collecting tier 1,2,3,4 armor before that Mac armor to keep us into the game. Anyways GL on ur choice I would like to craft the final armor Personaly
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Posted 10/11/2011 12:27:16 PMHave been there myself, but to get back to the discussion if you get lootbags so you've got a chance to get that nice piece so you will get accepted to a better one. Then that's a really great system.
Imperial Agent: Check,Trooper: Check,Bounty Hunter: Check,Smuggler: Check!!Who needs force powers when you got a Blaster at your side.
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Posted 10/7/2011 11:36:40 PM"Hey Vette, It's me your badass Sith Lord just back from the Op with some cool lewt!"
"Wonderful Master what did you get this time?"
"Oh I got four tokens and some magic beans."
"Wow only two more tokens and you can buy that Corellian shoulder armor I saw you lusting after."
Scenario 2:
"Hey Vette, It's me your badass Sith Lord just back from the Op with some cool lewt!"
"Wonderful Master what did you get this time?"
"Oh I chopped this mechanical arm off a huge droid with my lightsaber."
"Let me see. Well get me a couple of power converters and a few days at the workbench and I might be able to make you something useful."
Which one would you prefer?
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Posted 10/6/2011 7:39:27 PM- View User Profile
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Posted 10/6/2011 6:58:07 PMMost of the commenters support loot bags as I do (I'm shocked actually) .
This article is just wrong on some things .
Let me explain. The contention that there have to be 2 raid sizes because wow had 2 is supportable but a little superficial at best. If there weren't 2 raid sizes people would certainly complain as they will that there aren't 3, or 4 or 1. People will complain anyway.
There are many potential reasons for Bioware to favor 2 raid sizes but I won't bore everyone with useless speculation. I will simply point out that if people not complaining is the guiding principle for Bioware, we are in serious trouble.
Size of raid= skill. This has been sufficiently covered. I favored 10 mans in wow because I had a better chance of not having to raid with that one a**hat in the guild that you just could stomach and as a healer I didn't have to use a 2 button rotation. Saying the game needs to have equal balance, I think Bioware is kind of aware of that :P.
I next go to the "logic" on loot bags. I'm not even going to comment on someone getting "theoretically get all the loot there is for him and her in as little as two weeks" What I will note though is we are talking about "casual" mode, not "hardcore" mode. With casual mode plays are, let's say, less likely to be gear driven. Further, Bioware is way ahead of you. There will be multiple hard modes. I think Darth Hater broke that news did you not?
Your paragraph on loot distribution just mystifies me. You want to separate tokens by boss to slow down getting the loot you receive and in the next sentence suggest under this system players will get loot every week. ??
I just don't think this article was well thought out and ignores information I looked up on your site.
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Posted 10/10/2011 12:45:43 AM- View User Profile
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Posted 10/6/2011 3:26:47 PMThis makes no sense. Loot containers won't necessarily have any greater chance of dropping loot than if the loot just dropped off the boss. They have complete control over the drop rate for both and can sync them up easily. In fact, I'm sure they could make it so that only two pieces of gear dropped in bags for the raid and everyone else got the currency if they wanted to. So sure, if someone got lucky and there were only two pieces of loot for their class on the boss they could get it after beating him twice, but how is that different from if the boss dropped the loot? People can still get lucky and get all their drops really quickly. Any argument about loot frequency either against or in favor of loot bags is just ridiculous because that is something easily controlled by Bioware. Besides, we have no idea what the chances are for loot to drop yet, so there's no point in saying "Oh, this will be terrible" when you have no idea.
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Posted 10/8/2011 9:12:56 AMWell sure, but imagine two scenarios ; in one, you wait on loot do drop week after week and when it does, someone ninja's it. In the other scenario, you wait for loot week after week, and when it's randomly your turn to get it, poof, in your bags. See the advantage for casual players?
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Posted 10/6/2011 2:39:48 PMIf I get gear easy there is no reason for me to raid anymore. I would rather play pvp or solo or play real life. I hope they make it very hard to get gear and when one gets the gear, it feels like an achievement. An option could be tokens which can be transfered across account. One could farm tokens on ones main and send them to an alt.
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Posted 10/6/2011 2:31:19 PMI've read in one of the interviews that hard modes will have a more traditional loot system. You can tell there they are thinking ahead, since the more hardcore guilds will likely be on loot counsel or dkp. I can't see them making the oversight of having normal mode raids be a several week affair. Bioware isn't dumb enough to take the RND out of looting, random satisfaction is key to MMOs.
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Posted 10/6/2011 2:25:50 PMDon't get me wrong, i'm not saying being exclusive is bad. The guild that prides itself in it's egc completion time is good for the community. But i swear, if I ever have to put up with another jerk telling me my gear is too bad to raid, i'm gonna scream. I might not have the best gear, and i might raid in pvp gear, but my dps was always higher than their average players. In short, gear isn't everything.
Don't act like it's the end of the world because swtor wants to do away with griefing and middle-man raiding. Just QQ some moar and act like bioware listens to whiny nerds who get off on telling others what they can, and can't, have. They're bound to hear something you slur out in your nerd-rage induced stupor.
(all imo. Don't get a hard on because you don't agree and are forced to add 'gtfo noob'. Though if you were to add that, it would be slightly amusing to me :D)
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Posted 10/6/2011 2:56:19 PMMy beef with was with the Q&A from Day 2. Where they said "Loot Bags" for Reg modes and possibly a different system for Hard Modes. I have no problem with a Hard Mode giving better loot (As was stated). Its (HARD) and you should be rewarded. But what is with this reasoning that we need some (DKP, EPDKP, or Loot Council)? I dealt with all the systems in WOW. I have no problem with if you want that system. I dont like it. I would say allow the option for those who want that system. If you want a GM or Officers saying you what you can and cant have (For a game your paying for) be my guest. But at least leave an option for Pugs or other players who want to keep "Loot Bags" in (Hard Modes). My personal view is being elite has nothing to do with loot distribution. I dont feel like my guilds ability to take down and instance boss reflects less coridination or skill based how we function with Loot Distro. I am not slamming the Guilds who want to (Master Loot, GDKP etc.....) but dont penalize me for not agreeing with that system.
My beef with was with the Q&A from Day 2. Where they said "Loot Bags" for Reg modes and possibly a different system for Hard Modes. I have no problem with a Hard Mode giving better loot (As was stated). Its (HARD) and you should be rewarded. But what is with this reasoning that we need some (DKP, EPDKP, or Loot Council)? I dealt with all the systems in WOW. I have no problem with if you want that system. I dont like it. I would say allow the option for those who want that system. If you want a GM or Officers saying you what you can and cant have (For a game your paying for) be my guest. But at least leave an option for Pugs or other players who want to keep "Loot Bags" in (Hard Modes). My personal view is being elite has nothing to do with loot distribution. I dont feel like my guilds ability to take down and instance boss reflects less coridination or skill based how we function with Loot Distro. I am not slamming the Guilds who want to (Master Loot, GDKP etc.....) but dont penalize me for not agreeing with that system.
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Posted 10/6/2011 1:53:23 PMOperations do not have to be perfect out of the gate. They're end game content, and can be targeted as early as the first content patch, assuming that isn't 6 months after launch. The "problem" brought up with loot containers is easily corrected by just, oh I dunno, lowering the percentage of items that are dropped in the loot container. They already come with tokens too, so even if the chance is as low as 5% for an item to drop, you're gearing up with tokens while waiting for your 1-in-20 or whatever item. Loot containers does not equal easy gear, unless BioWare designs it that way.
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Posted 10/6/2011 3:21:20 PM- View User Profile
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Posted 10/6/2011 1:23:30 PMGood loot should not be used to bait players into weak content.