Interview with Ensidia on PvE Raiding
Those familiar with high end World of Warcraft raiding will recognize the guild name Ensidia. As a result of a 2008 merger of two raiding powerhouse guilds, SK-Gaming and Nihilum, the majority of Ensidia's raid team holds claim to almost every major world first boss kill since the 2005 European release of the game. Their website, which features a community of forums and strategic player guides, sometimes gets overwhelmed by high traffic when players hear the news of Ensidia's latest kill.
And now they have their eyes on Star Wars: The Old Republic.
We spoke with Ensidia guild members Mek and Buzzkill for over an hour, and we discussed a broad range of topics including their thoughts on PvE raiding, and how it might be implemented in Star Wars: The Old Republic.
Last week, Ensidia made MMO news headlines with their world first kill of Arthas in Icecrown Citadel on Normal 25-man mode. Because one of their rogues used Saronite Bombs in his rotation, it caused the encounter to "bug out" during a few of their Arthas attempts, but Ensidia maintains this was not known at the time. Blizzard assumed the guild deliberately exploited to get the kill, so they removed loot and the achievement from their character sheets, plus issued a 72 hour suspension to the entire Ensidia raid force. After their suspension was over, they promptly went back in and killed him again.
As you read this interview, we ask you to please keep in mind that this in depth conversation took place mid-January -- at least two weeks prior to this incident.
Let's start off with introductions of who you are, and what you do in Ensidia.
Mek: I am one of three guild masters for Ensidia. I play a restoration shaman... well, an elemental shaman nowadays. Anyway, been playing the game for a really long time. I am the guild master of Ensidia, and before that, SK Gaming and Curse for about four years.
Buzzkill: I am a warlock class leader in Ensidia since the conception of the guild and was the class leader of warlocks in Nihilum previously. I have been playing World of Warcraft for five years.
For those who may not know, can you guys tell us who Ensidia is and how you formed?
Mek: Essentially, you had two top guilds in World of Warcraft at the end of the last expansion. And we basically decided that we would merge into one guild for various reasons. Essentially, it was quite hard to recruit top players, and it just made a lot of sense for us to centralize. So we decided to combine the guilds for this expansion. We have been playing together for eighteen months as a single guild, and it is working out really well for us. We had a lot of good success, so we are really happy about it.
So, I am sure that you guys have tested and played various MMOs in the past, right?
Mek: Yep, lots of MMOs.
Buzzkill: Indeed. I basically played every single triple A MMO title for the past seven years. We basically played beta in every game, bought plenty of them, but never stick to them.
Mek: Except Star Wars: The Old Republic. We haven't played any of that yet, hint hint. (laughs) Actually, I didn't play as many MMOs as Buzz. I started out with Quake which I played for many years before I switched to my first MMO. But since WoW came out, I played various betas and whatnot. I tried all the latest ones at least.
Well, since you guys have such extensive experience, what criteria do you think that Star Wars: The Old Republic needs to have in order for you to consider making it the guild's core focus?
Buzzkill: Well, for me, I would say it would have to have big exposure, competitiveness, and a challenge in the PvE aspect of the game.
Mek: And that's really it. We are a really focused group of people. It has to have a really strong PvE side. I think if you look at other MMOs, they haven't really gotten to the same level of World of Warcraft PvE in terms of depth and quantity of content. Everything has to be challenging. Public exposure is a big part of what we do and we don't want to play a game that no one has heard of or follows. We have a big website that is built around the guild now and a big part of the guild is supporting that as well. It is really a lot of different factors, but ultimately it has to be fun as well. We tried a bunch of different MMOs and after about a couple of weeks, you get really bored. I don't know how World of Warcraft keeps drawing people back, but you don't get bored quite as easily.
Buzzkill: Yeah, plus we are all avid gamers, so if a game is good, then we're going to stick to it. If it fits all of the criteria, then we are going to start playing it hardcore.
Mek: We just want the whole package if possible. It isn't like anything Star Wars is in danger of not being in the public eye -- we're not just going to go start playing some MUD that nobody has heard of. But to expand on the whole competitive edge: it is going to take a lot of players to switch for one of these to take off. You can't really do it with just a few hundred thousand players. It is going to take a few million players to really make one of these games compete with World of Warcraft, because it needs to have that strong competitive community to be on the same level.
You raided for a very long time in World of Warcraft, so you definitely saw the ins and outs of PvE raiding. What things would you like to see in Star Wars: The Old Republic in regards to raiding? Do you need the single boss, or are you okay with other things?
Mek: I would say variation. Fighting big bosses is cool for most people who have played World of Warcraft. For me, it was fighting one of those earlier bosses, like Ragnaros, who is a huge, epic boss who gives you that epic feel. I saw a lot of stuff about Star Wars: The Old Republic that says they are going for that heroic feel. You can achieve that in two ways: a really big boss that is intimidating and gives you that feeling of being overwhelmed, and you can do it with a sort of a zergy style encounter where you are getting swarmed by a lot of enemies. I think anything that promotes good team play or has a competitive edge that is based on skill can be successful. If skill has no meaning, then I think that is the worst thing that you can have in a game. I know that a lot of people complain about that sort of thing in World of Warcraft, but there is always going to be some element of movement. The more skill that is required, the more we want to play it. So, I would have to say that is more important than how big the boss is or how many mobs you are fighting.
Buzzkill: For me, there was always something appealing about a boss that you would never have the distinct chance of beating it by yourself. But in a team, it is a bit different.
Mek: Balancing is one of the most difficult things. I think that is one of the strengths that Blizzard has with World of Warcraft. They've been around for so long, they had so much time to get things right, and still people are constantly complaining about this or about that. When you start with a new game, everything is fresh. You don't have any of testing or experience of balancing. That is actually one of the things that games fall down on when they first start out. People are just like "this is horribly balanced and I'm not prepared to give this several years to get it right, like World of Warcraft does. I will just go back to playing my old game."
Buzzkill: Also, Star Wars: The Old Republic is implementing a lot of new concepts in the whole class system. So we'll see. Bottom line: it is up to them. Game testing brings it so far, but the concepts that that they are talking about implementing are going to make or break the PvE aspects of the game for the hardcore. The casual player doesn't really care about balance; he just doesn't want his character to be completely useless, but that is about it. Hardcore players go for min-maxing and want that level of game play, and balance is definitely going to make or break it.
Mek: Look at the impact of balance on top guilds and how it has affected World of Warcraft and raiding. When you have a situation where good players are having to sit out just because of their class, that is the really the kind of thing that you really don't want going on in your game. Blizzard tries to deal with that, but it never really goes away.
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Posted 3/1/2010 5:17:34 PM- View User Profile
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Posted 2/28/2010 12:31:36 AMWe don't even know the nature of TOR's high-end dungeons and raids. Maybe they'll be story-focused too. Half this interview here is just speculation on how TOR will do it. If they're story-focused like the rest of the game, Ensidia may not be the best testers for that, since they'd be more likely to ignore the story.
Then again, I'm also not much of a raider myself. I'm also a bit of a small group player, though I also enjoy some pvp.
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Posted 3/1/2010 4:04:58 AM- View User Profile
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Posted 2/27/2010 1:51:39 PMMaybe let guilds like Ensidia do testing and QA for WoW expansions though, since they're a proven valued commodity in that game.
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Posted 2/16/2010 5:51:40 PMIt's not as if WoW is the only basis they can go back to for comparisons or experiences, as is the case with many of us. They've plenty of hours in other games, which I'd expect to give them a wider view and stronger base to their PvE ideology. And it's always nice to have experience in multiple genres, if only to avoid becoming jaded.
I think Buzzkill has it pretty close when he said that PvE needs some competition to keep someone going, to keep the drive alive. And for competition to work, you need lots of people, all striving for the top. That's not to say that only the best of the best should be able to experience all the content, however.
Moving to a more personal view, I believe that people willing to play less, and put less time than the hardcore players should be able to experience all content, but not receive equal reward as those who put so much time and effort into it. It's one thing to be casual- who can often be better than the hardcore players- and then there's just bad. Let me elaborate on this:
Hardcore Players: Will spend as much time and energy as is required to get somethign right, and get it right every single time.
Casual: Someone that tends to not put as many hours in as hardcore players, but still get through the content and encounters, usually without problem. Instead of having instances on farm, they'll do it every now and then, trying not to get burned out. Sometimes they're actually better than the hardcore players because they nail it sooner.
Entitled Player: Someone who thinks that because they pay money, they should have all the same gear, experience all the content, etc. This is not true.
You pay to have the content opened up to you, but actually getting through it requires work, just as in reality. And those willing to work harder, should be rewarded with more. I am wholeheartedly for different difficulty levels with staging degrees of reward for content; and I'd probably do the easier first, and then go back and do the harder mode. Just my preference. I'd also like to point out that the harder you work for something, the more meaning it has, and the more you take it to heart.
Moving back to the interview, Mek nailed it quite well mentioning variang content. Fightign the same encounter over and over again with different spells or appearances is the quickest way to burn out. Keep things different, new and exciting! That's why I could never work in an office. Routine drives me insane, and I'd hate to see it ingame. Of course, ToR is using a lot of new things I've never seen before, so usign any game as a reference point feels pretty inaccurate; still, the point comes across.
Gating- absolutely will kill the game for me. It killed WoW for me. Well, it was one of the many nails in the coffin. I've read a Blizz employee saying that sometimes releasing intentionally bugged content, and untested content, can be a good business move, which is completely disgusting. Getting back to the subject, either you have fresh new material or you don't. Don't simply recycle what you've got or make what you have run as long as possible; all that does is suffocate the attraction to the content. Look at half of the FF characters as examples.
I'm really looking forward to see how who's in your group, and the decisions you make, affect your gaming experience. No matter how many times you go back through and play it, it'll be almost impossible to get the same thing twice. And considering that each plot takes almost two hundred hours or more, you'll be very busy trying to get it done. Decisions made affecting your immediate experience, along with those made by your friends with you? It's completely amazing, totally mindblowing that such programming is even conceivable. Just dear gods and science, please no holy trinity based balance or gameplay.
On the topic of guild integration, I'd really love to see more of it. No other way to put it; in many MMOs, a guild meant nothing. It should be quite a bit of your playing experience, I think, because once you fight the right niche, with the right group of people, any game becomes infinitely more enjoyable.
I'm really not concerned, though; BioWare is staffed by ingenious, talented, and innovative thinkers. I can't imagine ToR not being an amazing game.
Darth Haters and Ensidia- keep it up.
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Posted 2/15/2010 8:35:49 PMOne thing I hate is that they aren't really into roleplaying. TOR will be story-focused, but you still have these kinds of people flooding in who won't give a damn about the story or their character beyond the numbers on gear and character stats. It's like finding out your friend bought your favorite book, only to find out he bought it because he liked the hot chick on the cover, and doesn't care to even try to read it.
I also don't like their focus on catering to the hardcore(the "Career Raiders" so to speak), giving them things that casuals can't get unless they also become hardcore. I don't want to feel at a disadvantage just because I don't put in 40 hours a week to making a job out of killing bosses in dungeons. I have no life, I play games ALL the time, but I just don't have the focus or drive to do hardcore raiding. I don't want another game like WoW where you're given one-time only titles for doing a world/server first kill. That excludes everyone else in the game/server by limiting the reward to just those Firsters.
I also don't like their dismissive attitude towards player housing. I think the biggest failing WoW has had is its not adding player housing. These days you have millions of MMO players who've only played WoW, and as such don't really know much about nor see the need for player housing. When those players don't care about player housing, future MMO developers don't see the need to add them. LotRO is the only recent post-WoW MMO I know of with housing. I guess you just need to play a game with player housing to understand the benefit, like Star Wars Galaxies, and FFXI(both pre-WoW MMOs), and the aforementioned LotRO. Whatever your opinion of SWG's combat system, the housing is spot-on. Sure you can store your stuff at a bank like WoW, but what about showing off your trophies of war in a house for others to see? A place to call your own. Games like SWG are still thriving partly because of housing, casuals love it. If you want an MMO to appeal to all types, add housing for the casuals. The hardcores will come around and try them too. I'm still hoping TOR will have player housing of some form, even if they're instanced apartments.
And to drop off the Hate Train, I agree with their enthusiasm about new kinds of boss fights, not just focusing on "kill the one huge guy until he falls over dead". I'd like to see more variety with fighting small armies and such. I also like their enthusiasm over being able to shake it up with less emphasis on healing and more on crowd control. It would take skill(which raiders would love), but Crowd Control is something simple that anyone can do to mobs, even we lowly casuals. It could shake up the tedium of combat for the Trinity with something familiar made a focus that changes up combat. Plus I'm sure a lot of WoW players during WotLK were missing Crowd Control, with most 5-mans becoming AOE runthroughs with no consideration of CC. Crowd Control just makes things more tactical.
I also agree with them on the classes. How do you get regular people to roll the non-Force classes? I disagree on their idea that "no one wants to roll a dumb stormtrooper", since I am very emphatic about rolling a Trooper. But I see where they're coming from. BioWare needs to do something to appeal the gun-toting classes for those regular people who only have eyes for the Jedi/Sith that they saw in the movies.
Anyways, that's my long wall of text. I've read the article in detail, and I apologize for my earlier rants about the Ensidia exploiting, since that was entirely off-topic and I hadn't read the entire Interview yet.
I hope to see more interviews like this in the future, maybe a few from notable RP Guilds and such, just to get a flipped perspective on TOR.
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Posted 2/13/2010 12:18:22 AMThis is not a free-for-all to bash. Nor is it a discussion of “hardcore†vs. “casual†play styles except where it is brought up in regards to balance and difficulty in raiding.
If you agree or disagree with the opinions that were brought up in the article specific to raiding ideas and concepts, then feel free to express your opinions — but stay on topic.
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Posted 2/13/2010 5:19:22 AMAgain, I must let you know I am here for attention, a LOT of attention.
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Posted 2/12/2010 6:28:45 PM- View User Profile
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Posted 2/12/2010 6:26:49 PM- View User Profile
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Posted 2/12/2010 5:42:00 PMexact _opposite_ of hardcore.
WoW - which did in fact cater to hardcore players - has gone in the opposite direciton.
Very few guilds even set foot in classic Nax, and now in Wolkt people are pugging ICC. Why would BioWare do the same misstake that Blizzard is now trying to move away from?
If these guys (Buzzkill & Mek) are under the impression (or at least hope) that raiding
in TOR will be "challanging" then they might be setting themselves up for a huge disappointment.
/Xex
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Posted 2/12/2010 4:03:23 AMNow raids take a one to two hours if you have a solid group, even Heroics only take 15min to do.
What gets tiring is people saying they can not play for X-hours a day and expecting loot to fall from the sky.
MMOs are all about time commitment, plenty of guilds are out there that raid causally.
Lets be serious here, real-life always comes first but on AVERAGE if you can not play for two hours a day MMOs are just not for you.
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Posted 2/12/2010 5:48:19 PM- View User Profile
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Posted 2/12/2010 4:23:26 PMHowever the game is so accessible now that most raids only take a few hours, and thats if you are going for a full clear.
Unless BioWare makes one part of end-game progression soloing you will either be stuck with PvP or PvE (Raids).
Again join a guild or PuG raids/encounters that suit when you want to play. You can not blame the game or your personal life choices that you do not play as much as you want.
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Posted 2/12/2010 3:35:20 AM