Darth Hater

Can anyone take BW/EA serious any longer?  I'll continue playing a real b2p game (GW2), I refer to SWTOR being b2p since I purchased the game prior to launch and am currently locked out of it due to letting my sub expire.  I am not enticed in the least by this model to come back to TOR.

 

 

I find this F2P model to be ridiculous to say the least. Most points have been covered by other people, I will just put it as "you should NOT have restrictions on the features, but only on the latest/top-tier content". In other words, play the game fully to 50, and if you like it and want some more (the new FPs/operations, rated WZs, tier gear etc etc) then pay. The way they limit the experience of F2P players is like trying to kick them out of the game. 

I rest my case by saying this: If anyone from BW is reading this then simply ask yourself this question: if a player goes through this model of F2P SWTOR and Mass Effect (any of them as they are available right now), who do you think they would want to keep playing and paying for?

Do you think the restrictions are appropriate?

After playing the first 10 levels as a F2Per, I think that most of the restrictions are fine, but some seem a bit over the top, others a little silly. At level 10, you actually start to receive reduced XP. You also can't receive any of the cash boxes that you get from some missions. No cargo space feels a little cheap, even for being a F2Per. I think we all know how everyone feels about the quickslot issue...

Are they too harsh?

Aside from what I mentioned above, they generally are ok I'd say. Again, this is only after playing for just past the first 10 levels. I didn't really feel that I couldn't play the game properly (quickslots notwithstanding) if I didn't want to pay a cent, but as a subscriber, I'm not a big PvPer, and I usually don't play Operations and Flashpoints very often, so I might not be the best person to consider those particular restrictions being harsh. It really feels like the barebones F2P exists mainly to target those who 'just wanted KOTOR', not the MMO crowd necessarily.

Should BioWare change some of them? If so, which ones?

Yeah, I think they really need to change some of them. Cargo space - at least one stack, or half a stack if it were possible. The reduced XP and quickslot restrictions, I'd say do away with completely. Locking the sprint until level 15 seems a bit much as well.

With the preferred status restrictions announced, are you more apt to unsubscribe?

While I would like to try out the preferred status to see how it feels, I doubt I'll unsub. I'm too used to my current status and benefits in the game for things to change, especially with whatever may happen down the road with new content and inevitable changes to the cartel store.

Aside from the restrictions, I feel there is a larger related problem with the way Bioware is handling this F2P system. More than anything I felt regarding my ability to play the game a F2Per, I felt annoyed. It felt like everything they could try to restrict and sell, they did so that I would subscribe. While this is not surprising, it was enough to make me feel like subscribing was the last thing I would want to do if I were just coming into the game. I know that part of that comes from the restrictions themselves, but the act of constantly reminding you that you should subscribe is, I think, even worse. It feels like Bioware is hitting you over the head with, 'you have to subscribe...you have to subscribe...'. One thing I have noted with other F2P MMOs I have played (LOTRO and D&D Online in particular), as well as other just F2P games is that the idea is not to make you NEED to give them money, but make you WANT to give them money. The easiest thing to do would be to remove/reduce the restrictions, but it would be in Bioware's best interests I think, to be a little subtler with their sales pitch, or maybe better options outside of subscribing. It could be that preferred status can help with that, but I guess we won't really know until we try it out for ourselves.

I seriously hope that you guys that are not feeling the restrictions and such try it all out when you get the opportunity, and tell Bioware what you think if you have issues with it. They've already proven that they are at least open to change if you open your mouths on their forum, or wherever they are listening. Sitting and stewing over it all won't really accomplish a whole lot.

Do you think the restrictions are appropriate?

Nope. Their F2P option is a glorified demo, not real F2P. As always, EA has no clue, REAL F2P is about making your game as enjoyable as possible for free and THEN proceed to offer more for fee, but hey, I guess there is no way a bunch of suits could understand that!

Simply put, limiting Warzones to a certain number per week is stupid, LoL would NEVER have achieved their level of success if they did something like that. You make it free to have as much people in your world, each creating more activity in your game, making people want to stay in.

Are they too harsh? Should BioWare change some of them?

Yes they are too harsh. They are clearly made to convert demo players into subs THROUGH frustration. I feel bad for the poor souls who will fall into that EA trap.

If so, which ones?

Remove all playing restrictions (OP, WZ ect...). Restrict the capacity to receive rewards if you really need to restrict people but don't give a reason for your players to exit game. Telling them "You can't play anymore WZ this week!" is the PERFECT way to piss them off, and that mean lost money for you!

With the preferred status restrictions announced, are you more apt to unsubscribe?

One thing is certain, its not making me more inclined to give that game a try. This smells of frustration and abuse. With Firefall and GW2 out, there is very few incentive to fall into that apparent trap!

I agree with most of the other guys here but would like to add that the restriction to the character creation regarding only 3 available races (Human, Cyborg and Zabrak) is too harsh. I think it's over the top, mainly because it should not endanger some preferred or subscriber people or Bioware in any way. Not to mention that my favorite races are the Sith Pureblood and Rattataki or that many people adore Twi-leks and would not like this decision at all.

I see one major flaw in the F2P model that bioware is releasing, reward for subscribers.  

Yes i understand that many of the things that subscribers will get will cost coins to unlock once F2P goes live, but the issue I see is that there isn't enough value with the coins to make it truly valuable for people who are subscribing.  The "vanity" things that are in as of the PTR are quite minimal and most of them are gear sets that look just like gear sets that are already in the game.  No new art for these and the one color crystal that is being offered looks very similar to one that is already available for a few measly credits.  

Theoretically anyone who has been a sub for a while can just drop to F2P come launch and use their large amount of coins to unlock the big stuff and sit on the rest.  There will be no real reason for me to stay a sub at this point.  In reality there should be a lot more additions to the mix here.  There should be a large amount of unique styled gear that could replace gear that you already have through the modification system.  There should be many new color crystals that would allow for people to have odd colors (black for instance)  These are things that are nice for customization and is a reason to stay a subscriber instead of just stopping and using the back stock we have at this point to stay and play for a long time.

Now don't get me wrong, I understand that it takes time to get stuff out for something like this but look at the CE store, they've been saying that they'd add things to it and there is still nothing.  I think (I may be wrong) that stuff has been taken away.  

The issue I see is that if they don't give people a REAL reason to stay a subscriber then most will drop to F2P and Bioware's income from this game will drop, which means more layoffs, which means longer between new content, which means less subscribers which starts the whole thing over again.

I think the sub value primarily lies in the end-game, PvP, Ops, etc.  If you assume the 500cc stipend a subscriber gets is equivalent to $5, which would be on a par with other hybrid model games, then the weekly passes for the gated content come to about $40 a month if you don't subscribe.

Even if you hate space missions and ignore flashpoints, the weekly passes for PvP and Ops totals about $20 a month, still more than the cost of a sub.

On top of that, there are all the locks that you don't have to deal with, cargo holds, guild banks, inventory slots, all of which you can buy with in-game credits rather than real money.

All in all, the sub is good value if you want to play this game to it's fullest,  they shouldn't need to cripple the game for free players, they just need to show the added value a sub brings.

• Do you think the restrictions are appropriate?

Some of the restrictions I think they are appropriate, some aren't in my opinion. I can understand you have to put in some restrictions for FTP players or else what's the point of subscribing to the game? Subscribers should have access to different content/conveniences that FTP players don't have. I say that because this game is using a sub/freemium/ftp model with a cash shop. If the game was entirely FTP with a cash shop selling no power but convenience and vanity items, I would have another opinion about it. But I feel like there is no need to go into detail about that.

• Are they too harsh?

Some of the restrictions are too harsh, some are over the top, some are ridiculous to say the least. For example the wz restriction was harsh, namely the amount of wzs you can do. Atm they changed the amount of warzones FTP players can do, which is positive. The ones that are over the top are for example game features that allows you to customize your character like hide/show helmet, titles and unify colors. And then there are the restrictions that are ridiculous: max 5 field revives and you are asked to subscribe to get full rewards from when a crew skill returns a lockbox. I believe that also apply to missions that gives lockboxes as rewards.

• Should BioWare change some of them? If so, which ones?

In my opinion some of the restrictions need adjustments and some need to be removed. I'm not going to list all the game features and restrictions which I find that needs to be removed or adjusted. But the following list should give a fairly impression of which other game feature/restriction I think should be adjusted too.

• Space Missions = the amount of sms a FTP and PS (Preferred Status) can do, should be upped. If the sms were more popular (I think) and weren't only solo missions but includes group sms and PvP sms I would have suggested a different adjustment.
• Quick Travel = 1 hour cd not 2 hour cd. If they still go with this I think they should at least give PS players 1 hour cd.
• Inventory = They should at least allow FTP and PS players to expand inventory space by credits the first two times. But I'm not sure about the number between a FTP and PS player.
• Warzones = Give FTP and PS players access to only wzs and no access to rwzs.
• Flashpoints = The restriction should be only applied to hardmode flashpoints, FTP players get full rewards for doing 1-2 HM FP(s) and PS players for doing 2-4 HM FPs. Atm you only receive rewards for the first three rolls in a FP.
• Field Revives = Remove it completely.
• Crew Skills returning lockboxes = This restriction should be removed too.
• Operations = I'm still thinking if FTP players should be allowed to do ops or not but I think at least PS players should have access to 1 SM ops per week. For more ops and hardmode/nightmare difficulty access they will have to buy a weekly pass.

• With the preferred status restrictions announced, are you more apt to unsubscribe?

With the preferred status as a casual player I think it will be more convenient and cheaper for me just to buy the weekly passes to do the content that I want to do and when I have the time. I'm expecting they won't charge that much for a weekly pass. But time will tell. Therefore I hope Bioware will release related info soon. I could be horribly wrong and I won't be surprised if the cartel coins pricing is high. Nonetheless, the choice and the freedom are there, it is possible to only buy weekly passes and do the content that you would like to play. Things like commendation cap and credit limit aren't really going to be in the way when you play for example warzones. Although you can't buy the best weapons. Even so best weapons for a casual player isn't going to have much or no impact on the gameplay. If you wish to have the best gear, subscription is the way to go. 

• If you have any feedback that does not fit the above questions, feel free to include it here as well in the comments section of this post. 

There are a few things I would like to comment about:

I agree with Sheye's point 5: "If you pay to unlock an operation or wz you also unlock the rewards you get during that week (purple items)." To me the fact there is a restriction on item equipping for both purple items and event items is a way to milk more money from players. I view it as a double-double purchase, you buy a weekly pass for example ops access and you have to buy item equipping unlock too if an item drops that you get.

A number of restrictions makes me wonder. For example the item equipping restriction, does it only apply to the gear item itself or does that also include the mods? Is there no unlock for purchase available for raising the commendation cap and credits cap? Or is the cap in place for FTP players only? Is subscribing the only way to remove the credit restriction? That goes the same for the restriction of receiving full rewards from crew skills that give lockboxes. I'm sure there are more restrictions I'm wondering about, but those are the ones that stands out. 

07-31-2012 - EA cites "choice" as the reason for the switch, and BioWare GM Matt Bromberg said in an interview with IGN that the free-to-play decision is less about subscriber losses as much as it is the market:

"There has been some decline in our subscriber numbers, but I wouldn't say that's what's driving the decision...what's happened in the marketplace is that free-to-play has really become the market standard for MMOs and we felt like there were both potentially millions of new players who were Star Wars fans who never tasted the game because the subscription was a barrier. Our research also told us that a lot of the folks who we had earlier on who left the game would like to come back and try some of the new features and content that we've put into the game since they've left if the subscription wasn't a barrier. So we feel like the market and our players are telling us that greater access is what they want and so we're really responding to that.

If they want to give players greater access then in my opinion scrap the subscription model, either use B2P or FTP model with a cash shop selling convenience features, aesthetics/vanity items only. They can expand those models by offering purchasable content with permanent access. I believe DDO FTP model is selling content if memory serves. Those weekly passes are a hindrance in my opinion. I'm more than happy to buy all fps, ops, wzs, daily hubs, etc. and have permanent access to all. I think they underestimate how much ppl are willing to pay for things from the cash shop. And I'm not overestimating the income they can get that way. However atm the cash shop mostly offers items that are simply recolored armor, boxes that has a chance of a rare item and recolored vehicles. Recolored items aren't very interesting items. Some ppl may like the recolor, but I don't find it worth a purchase if it's only a recolor of an existing in-game item. The hovering throne is a nice item. Of course the cash shop sells other vanity items too. Darth Malgus Holostatue?, no give me the Jedi Grand Master's Holostatue instead. In regards to those boxes with random chance of a rare loot, I know some other games use that too. It sure is a convenient way for them to milk more money.

If I look at the amount of restrictions plus what the restrictions are, I think overall EA is being too greedy. I'm not surprised at all, one of the worst game company out there in my opinion. In my books it's one of the company which is responsible for the disappearance of several good game developers. They are putting a restriction "practically" on everything and anything. Thank god Bioware/EA did listen to the feedback/opinions of players and made some changes to the restrictions, but it's still too restrictive if the purpose of the FTP and the Preferred Status is to attract new players and old players. I'm pretty sure most ppl will agree on that it's a free/extended trial and freemium account they are offering. I'm positive that most of them aren't going to delve that deep into all the restrictions there are and just take a quick look at what is restricted on http://www.swtor.com/free/features But of course I can be horribly wrong, only time can tell what the outcome will be. 

I'm happy about F2P.  BW has done what i have been looking for in a MMO, and that is Story. All this other stuff like WZ, OPS I don't really don't play much at all. Its the story, each class has its own story. I have only got 1 lvl 50 and working on my next 50, to exp the story. Not to space bar throw to the boring end game.

The main problem with this F2P model is they are not working at all in the main flaws of the game. Just offering the only good thing actually have for free, and that is leveling.

EA is trying to convince the players to go to sub model cutting the most boring and unpolished part of the game , the endgame, boring and reptitive as no other game I've ever seen in my gamer life.

That ony works for 1 or 2 months. When people see there is nothing worth to pay for, as 1,5 m players stated leaving the game when reached end game... The game will be a barren again,

EA knows  and doesnt care, they hope to milk as much money they can from the cartel shop and the subs before put the game in coma. 

This model is in my opinion just another big fail. The game oesnt worth a sub, The only thing could make me change my mind is the cartel coins goes by 150 for 1$. Then maybe they can keep a lot of players.

Pay 4 or 5$ / month for just play warzones (in fact the only thing I do in game without go to puke) is fair enough.

For someone so opinionated... maybe you should spend less time thinking about your own opinions and in your own head, and learn some new knowledge from other peoples heads that spent a long time producing coherent thoughts for us to absorb, and improve. Your english is terrible, and maybe you should spend more time thinking about that.

As for your opinion, you could be right. However, any person with common sense will know how to make a SW IP work. It just needs a few more content patches, and its B2p with a cash shop for F2p but not sure how they will charge P2P players, who are already subbed.

And Im sure there is worse end game else where. THe FP's and OPs are the only good thing in this game imo. THe WZ's are well done enough, and Hutt ball is the only unqiue one, and now HYper gate. SO 2 good WZs with fun combat. Thats better than GW2, with pointless sieging that is a zergfest, which is still fun at times, or what I think is terrible pvp in maps that are just maps, and nothin like huttball or hyper gate for example.

So there are several good things about swtor;

1. Combat

2. Companions

3. VO/cinematics

4. Story - not side quests imo

5. Heroics/FPs/OPs

6. 2 WZs that are fun

7. Its a sci-fi game and SW

8. Decent customization that is limiting by cost to modd

9. A lot of planets (this is good, but also bad due to how it seperates people)

10. Working themepark economy, thats easy to use with companions as well

11. Lvling can be short (not as short as I want it to be)

12. Legacy system

13. Art style

14. U.I customization

15. Vanity pets (not me though - i am loyal to the few pets that I do end up getting, and happy with just that)

etc

However the future of swtor can be turned around very easily with more content. It already has a lot going well for the game.

The problem was more due to how long it takes to reach end game, and the end game being small. Not boring, but small. There are vanity pets as well, which are part of end game for some, and that is why people enjoy those kind of things, but for a lot the end game was too short to justify more from them, and they did not reroll an alt as well.

However, a lot I believe would return with more content as in story, and hopefully more good things to come.

Which would mean, f2p will do very well.

I think you're clearly jumping to the games defense without reading fully what the poster was commenting on.  I've been keeping an eye on swtor ever since I unsubbed in May to see if changes are/were being made that might entice me to return as a paying customer.  None of the changes I have seen in their f2p model really affect any of the core issues I feel the game has. 

Your point that more story content = f2p success only works if that content is unique and has some semblance of replayability.  Adding Makeb and no personal story just world arcs isn't going to keep people interested for the long term.  It'll be just like launch play the zone on one character and enjoy it.  Play through an alt pushing through it getting bored along the way at which point you either stop because you're bored with recycled content or become a masochist and play through it a third time hating it the whole way.  I really would like swtor to make changes and become a game that has sustainability and longevity but I don't see that happening as long as bad design choices keep being made.

For be a person who tries to change other persons opinions just because dont like it you should think :

1. 80% of the players who tried SWTOR leaved the game.

2. The game went to F2P in less than a year.

3. The main reason of leavers  is GAME DOESN't worth a sub.

4. the game has now less players than SWG after 3 years 2003-2005. 

F2p will fail , because the game FAILS. and nothing is done to mend it.

I was not saying story was the be all of what was needed.

However, I also said he could be right, but there is a lot going on in the game. Which means f2p is a new begining for many other people, which gives swtor more time to put other content.

And for the game to get old players back, story is one of the many things.

Other things like open world pvp with actual mechanics that illum was meant to offer,

Large WZs

duel arenas

Day/night cycle - adds something fresh to people who are tired of playing alts to try it some more with fay night cycles on the same planets

Bounty system

Pazaak

Swoop racing

3d space combat

--------

There is more, but those are the things I would like to see them add to swtor.

For me perosnally, more story, is not a big demand from me. I am actually more interested in end game.

However, we are talking about the success of swtor, and the f2p model. It will bring new players to the game, and possibly some old players as well... just with the f2p model.

And it will do well as f2p since if you consider what it actually does have, is actually good, but not good enough for a constant sub for a lot of people as indicated by many people leaving...

but people leaving is natural in a MMO market already used up in demographics by other games, and therefore will either stay because there is something unique (story but not enough online kotor fans who want to pay hence f2p) or there is enough end game that can compare to games like WoW and therefore people will gladly stay and play swtor instead of WoW... however, swtor does not have that end game so therefore people left after they got their story done, and finished the raids and got all the raid gear. Which is normal, and more story will bring them back.

There should have been more to the game at launch, but for f2p the game will do well. And the things that I would like to see will most likely be in the game.

And if what you are saying is true about Makeb and only having world arcs, then swtor devs are dumb in the head. And I agree they are making many stupid decisions... but still, even though any competent veteran of MMOs could have managed their 100s of millions of dollars better, they still have a good product, that they should have profited from, but becuase of their bad management that cost too much they broke even, and now are going f2p.

Quote from ThatGrymm »

I think you're clearly jumping to the games defense without reading fully what the poster was commenting on.  I've been keeping an eye on swtor ever since I unsubbed in May to see if changes are/were being made that might entice me to return as a paying customer.  None of the changes I have seen in their f2p model really affect any of the core issues I feel the game has. 

Your point that more story content = f2p success only works if that content is unique and has some semblance of replayability.  Adding Makeb and no personal story just world arcs isn't going to keep people interested for the long term.  It'll be just like launch play the zone on one character and enjoy it.  Play through an alt pushing through it getting bored along the way at which point you either stop because you're bored with recycled content or become a masochist and play through it a third time hating it the whole way.  I really would like swtor to make changes and become a game that has sustainability and longevity but I don't see that happening as long as bad design choices keep being made.

They already said that Makeb was a continuation of your story.  Not "THE" story, but your own toon's personal story.