Darth Hater

That's not entirely true.  Most players think they know more than the developers and insist on things "they" think should be in the game or changed.  Truth be told, they don't,  with a rare few that actually have some understanding.  Can you imagin what a game would be like if the developers did everything the players said?  If players really could do it better, they'd be the developers instead of some faceless name on the forums.

i can imagine a game where developers and players collaborate on the development of the game world, it's content and features on an on-going basis.  i can imagine that it would be a very successful and enjoyable place to play.  i can imagine a game world where players had more control over it than the completely "on rails" theme ride we were paying for (seems to me i remember BW saying TOR would be a mixture of both during the years i followed TOR's development). 

the players pay the bills that keep the lights on.  the players are always right-even when they're wrong. 

BW bet the farm on their (narrow) vision of a "story-based mmorpg".  this created a pretty entertaining leveling experience similar to their single player rpg games (although somewhat diluted in general quality imo) and left few resources for what a true mmo needs (i.e. massively social systems/features/content) in order to sustain these types of games.  when the story ended people left (and are still leaving).  when are mmo devs gonna learn that "end game" needs to be just "the game".  and for the record, i don't hold "raiding" as the be all for end game, which has been the default poster child for end game in far too many mmo games. 

anyway, BW's blunders (starting with their choice of game engine) with TOR are as numerous as are the posts about them, so i won't go into details here.  suffice it to say that TOR was a hugely missed opportunity (for them and for SW/mmo fans). 

Quote from theunwarshed »

i can imagine a game where developers and players collaborate on the development of the game world, it's content and features on an on-going basis.  

i can imagine that it would be a very successful

and enjoyable place to play.  i can imagine a game world where players had more control over it than the completely "on rails" theme ride we were paying for (seems to me i remember BW saying TOR would be a mixture of both during the years i followed TOR's development). 

the players pay the bills that keep the lights on.  the players are always right-even when they're wrong. 

BW bet the farm on their (narrow) vision of a "story-based mmorpg".  this created a pretty entertaining leveling experience similar to their single player rpg games (although somewhat diluted in general quality imo) and left few resources for what a true mmo needs (i.e. massively social systems/features/content) in order to sustain these types of games.  when the story ended people left (and are still leaving).  when are mmo devs gonna learn that "end game" needs to be just "the game".  and for the record, i don't hold "raiding" as the be all for end game, which has been the default poster child for end game in far too many mmo games. 

anyway, BW's blunders (starting with their choice of game engine) with TOR are as numerous as are the posts about them, so i won't go into details here.  suffice it to say that TOR was a hugely missed opportunity (for them and for SW/mmo fans). 

 

I'm sorry my friend but that's not the case.  You are wishing for something like this, like a utopian society, they just do not exist.  The customer is not always right.  Just ask anyone who has had the privilege of working in customer service.  Customers are looking out for numero uno.  That's it.  What can "I" get.  What can you do for "me".  Nothing more.  The problem with that is not everyone wants, thinks or feels the same way and each customer can care less if what they want is going to impact another customer negatively.

Sandbox games have been out and they have died.  SWG was a sandbox game, player housing, player driven content, free roaming space, the whole nine yards.  And look where it is now, dead.  Not because SoE decided to change it for the worse with ethe NGE but because even with all those now sought after features, they game did not click well with people.

As much as you dont want to hear it, you are the minority my friend.  In Galaxies, new players where far and few in between,  The average player did not know what to do after rolling a character and getting dropped off on a planet.  They had complete freedom and people where lost.  A few ran with it, went on to grind our professions and datacrons, to work their way to Jedi but most never stood a chance,  The game was not generating subs when World of Warcraft came out and the masses flocked to that game because of its "more on rails", less sandbox approach. 

SoE realized this, and in a desperate move to appeal to that crowd, changed the game.  Even with a much simpler design, and still some sandbox elements, the game bleed out.  Only the really faithful stayed or the rare few that started during the NGE and had no idea what the game use to be.

It had free roaming space, but most people avoided it.  People got lost out there, had no idea what to do when they got out there and most felt over whelmed to the point of just avoiding it.  Even SoE eventually started adding a "Quest" type system to get players to level cap because without a little guidance, they where lost.  Only the dedicated stayed.

Story is a big roll in this game, and it does appeal to casual gamers.  It gives them something to "visually see" and follow.  This crutch of a rail system is needed by most people.  Maybe not you, or I, but most will.  The truly dedicated players and fans are posting on this site.  And how many of them make up the 1.4 possible subs this game has?  The minority.  We are not the rule, but the exception.

As far as social systems, this game has the same features as every other theme park mmo.  There is nothing different.    Game has content, same as other mmos, same amount if not more in some cases.

You remember that girl you use to day dream about when you where in high school?  A fantasy, by definition, is just that.  It's never suppose to come true.  If it ever did, it wouldn't be worth as much.  You are never suppose to obtain the unobtainable. 

Be careful what you are asking for, because other games have tried and done what you think this game needs and they are not here anymore.  Closed up shop.  And Star Wars fans where not enough to keep SWG open.  We can only do so much.

Bold phrase above:  Can Imagine. 

i wasn't advocating for a completely "sand box" game and i wouldn't exactly hold up SWG as the best example of a game to ever have such a system if i were.  for example, the space game shouldn't be free form exploration because Star Wars was never about that (try Star Trek), but it should be off rails (w/o being an actual flight sim) within the context of a "guided experience".  i truly believe this would've been more successful than what we have in the game at present.  it's game design decisions such as this that boggle the mind.  how do you mis gauge the importance of the space aspect of Star Wars and reduce it to a mini game? 

i just want to correct something you said, it is true that TOR is nothing more than a reskin of every mmorpg that has come down the pipe; however, it doesn't have nearly enough of the features/systems in place as games such as WoW or Rift.  since these other games are doing it bigger and better, why play TOR?  speaking of Rift, they churn out real content patches every couple of months.  BW proved they were unable to do this even when they had twice the staff.  it's just an unsustainable model that BW has chosen.  if i'm truly the "vocal minority" than why the remarkable dropoff in subs?  if you think last earnings call was bad, wait til the next one.  i'm sure we'll see numbers south of 1 mil.   

The subs where so high because this game was hyped by the players.  I expected a mmo version of kotor, and thats what we got.  Everyone else was looking for the so call Wow killer.  Thinking that since its Star Wars and Bioware, they had the best shot.  Those same people are now saying that about Bethesda and the Elder Scrolls mmo.

 Rift didn't have the high surge of players that Tor had.  Hence, there was no 2 mill intinal subscribers.   Every die hard star wars fan had to try out tor, cause face it, thats what we do lol

When subs dropped off, that was the "excess" that left and we where left with the intinal fans of the game.  I don't think the numbers on this next call will be much diffrent honestly.

I agree with foxtrot, the people who claims "SWTOR let me down" are the ones that expected the WoW Killer in their fantasy world. BW never said there would be (by 12/13/2011):

1- Macros;
2- Addons;
3- Robust Achievment System;
4- LFG;
5- Ranked Warzones;
6- Guild leveling system;
7- Micro transactions;
8- UI Customization;
9- Cellphones App;
10- Server transfers;
11- Cross server features;
…

About sub numbers, you guys can call me pessimistic but I believe it will be around 700K players.

Launch 1.7kk --> 1.2kk --> next 0.7k.

this game was hyped by BW/EA just as much (if not more) as the fans.  your expectations might've been for an mmo kotor, however, BW themselves stated they were gunning for WoW's market share.  personally, i respect WoW's robust systems/polish but i didn't want a "WoW-killer"/ clone.  people call TOR a WoW clone, i call it a wannabe WoW clone. 

i will acknowledge that you got what your were expecting (sort of).  the best part of this game plays exactly like a single player rpg-albeit a watered down one. 

For me the best part of this game is to jump 30 meters all directions (not like wow where warrior's charge was a bad joke since last time I played WoW) hit some n00b with my Lightsaber, then Choke the poor bastard then push the guy 15 meters away then leap to him again and kick his ass.

Such enjoyment in combat I can only find in SWTOR, so yes... a pretty fun game to me.

pvp (as a whole) is a failure (or mixed success at best).  level 11-49 wz pvp is by and large good fun.  level capped pvp is total crap.  wz pvp is par for the course, with the possible exception of Huttball as a nicely done and creative innovation to the typical instanced pvp space.  open world pvp was a disaster from the start and they've proven that this dog with flees engine of theirs will never make it possible to implement good open world pvp. 

combat animations and general fluidity are decent for a system/mechanic of this type/age.  class balance is atrocious. 

To sum it all up in the shortest amount of words, My friends and I are playing TONS of swtor right now.  Pete: Speed runs through hms, look up Nyren,  Ewenn and Klutch- we are plowing through HMs in our groups.  You're welcome to come along any time, if your republic! ;)

I'm all for shared social points and bank/credits/crons being crosss legacy, not keen on valor tho as its a fairly good gauge of pvp experiance atm. If it was cross legacy it wouldnt be as good a mesuring stick due to being a good pvp healer is completely different to being a good pvp tank etc so I would prefer that being char specific

valor wouldn't work anyway without a change because you currently can't advance it past your character level.  lower level alts wouldn't be able to share it. 

the datacron idea the cast was throwing around would be too much of a "pay to win" feature that (although expedient) i just can't ever get behind. 

Legacy-wide datacron and codex unlocks - YES PLEASE
Legacy-wide social and valor rank  - YES PLEASE
The ability to access credits from a singular legacy account  - HELL YES

It's PanTHRO, not PanTHOR Mr. 80's aficionado.