GDC: A Conversation With BioWare's Damion Schubert
During our time in Austin, we had the opportunity to speak with Damion Schubert, Star Wars: The Old Republic Lead System Designer. The name should be familiar with those heavily following the game's development, as he frequently authors guest columns for Game Developer Magazine, and we watch his blog like hawks for possible clues about potential game systems. One of his past presentations to game developers inspired us to start specific forums to allow the Darth Hater community to discuss the implications to endgame design. Since Schubert is extremely busy working on the lucrative game systems we'll see in action soon,
What do you consider yourself in the Bartle Test of Gamer Psychology?
Damion Schubert: I am an achiever/explorer first and foremost. The interesting thing is -- and there is probably good research on this -- that every time I took the test in my life, it moved a bit so I am fairly well-centered. When I was running my own company, Killer actually spiked to the top. Now it is back in last place again which I think means I am in a relatively healthy place again.
Can you describe for us what you do and what you specifically work on in Star Wars: The Old Republic?
I am the Lead Systems Designer for Star Wars: The Old Republic. This means I am in charge of pretty much all of the systems in the game that don't relate to combat, the RPG, or story. That includes guilds, crafting, and some of the other systems that are coming down the pipe. Those are in my domain; imagine character creation, etc. My daily job is to interface with the gameplay programmers to get those features into the game, then iterating on them so they get to the point where they are fun, interesting, and balanced. And the team that I manage does the itemization for the game as well as creating the maps for the game. That is pretty much what my crew does.
How big is this crew?
I have a four person team under me. Most of our job is design documentation, itemization, and maps.
Are these some of the people we saw in the Developer Dispatches?
Not yet. Emanuel is currently the Associate Lead Designer. He works on basically whatever is our hottest topic is at the time, "hey, this needs to be fixed and focused on." And then Georg is Lead Combat Designer and is pretty much my equal inside the structure. He is worried about the RPG as well as the class balance and the class structure. That is what he spends all of his time focusing on, and he has four or five people under him. My team and his team sit in the same office together, so we have a lot of interaction with this because it is pretty important. The itemization speaks to the balance, and we want to be sure that crafting is important in the game. It is really important to us that crafters are a viable and important part of the economy so we need to make sure they fit into the balance there. There is a lot of back and forth between the two groups.
Of the systems that you work on, which one is your favorite?
We're really proud of the crafting system. We can't wait to talk to you about it, and it is going to be really soon.
You mentioned Dark Age of Camelot in terms of how endgame was the big thing and the designers created systems so players could get there really fast. Then you said something very specific, "what if endgame isn't where you want to be?" What are some of the most important principles to you about switching people from the race to the finish line versus enjoying the actual run itself?
Damion Schubert: We really want to put in systems to encourage replay. The Legacy System, which we hope to get in, will hopefully be in that venue. I am not ready to talk about what exactly it is and how we do that, but we are really betting heavily on the level up game.
We are really betting heavily on the story aspects of the game, and we really want people to enjoy that journey, and to feel like that journey is interesting and exciting. We actually want to incentivize people to try the different classes so that they experience those other stories, and they play the game again. So that really put a lot of pressure on us to make sure that leveling up your second character and your third character is not grinding, and that it still feels like a fresh and interesting experience. We're less interested in doing a Dark Age of Camelot "hey bypass all the content" in order to get to max level to do the endgame content because of what we think is important about our game and is our unique selling point: we want you to try that content. Maybe there is a way in the future, but that isn't even a sparkle in our eye at this point.
How do you balance the rewards for the solo player and the group player without ripping apart your community?
The thing about solo players versus group players is that our team believes that one of the important hallmarks of the success of World of Warcraft is that group play is a lot of fun, but always perceived as optional. And so we want to have that sort of balance. One of the things we don't want -- because a lot of your solo play uses your class story as a driver -- we don't want your class story to feel blocked because you can't progress unless you manage to find a group. If you look at WoW, a lot of their group content that was really robust when the game shipped started to starve once the game got to a certain age. There wasn't anyone else between levels 20 to 30, so there weren't enough people to go do a group part of any map. They actually had to take out some of that group content and make it solo content simply so you could accomplish that quest.
Our class quests are so integral to the experience that we can't blockade that stuff behind requiring a group to complete your objective. We designed the group content we call Flashpoints to be self-closed stories consumed on their own, and designed to be optional for the most part. We designed them to be more rewarding because there is more friction in assembling a group and getting people together. Actually managing people is harder, and therefore the rewards for that should be greater. We have a good idea of what we want group content to be inside our space and what we want social games to be, and I think we are at a place where both sets of people will be happy.
You also spoke about offline grinds and rewards. There is always a connotation of "Hey! They aren't playing the game, so why do they get all this XP when they log in?" What do you think is the best way to balance offline versus online rewards?
We will definitely be leveraging the offline grind philosophy in a couple of places in our design. We will experiment but we are not quite prepared to talk about that today.
We thought what we saw illustrated in one of the videos at PAX was akin to PvPvE. What is your opinion regarding implementations of PvPvE system designs?
I am really not prepared to talk about that at all. I wouldn't want someone talking about my crafting system. I would much rather you let the designer who is driving PVP with is his own team give you that conversation. We have our own release schedule with information. We have people that are A) proud of it and B) give you correct information whereas that isn't the part of the game that I focus on.
We saw some of the hallmarks of BioWare games talking about origins, racials/species, and combinations. What are some of the things that you can talk about that you are particularly proud of?
The most exciting part of character creation to me right now is... I am a really big fan of the game finding a natural rhythm. The game has to find a natural cadence to it. It is not so much about character creation as much once you get into the game, but how fast and how powerful people feel immediately. The fact that they are fighting worthy opponents, the fact that they feel like heroes from the outset, the fact that they've got a good sense of power, and the fact that they have a good rate of advancement right from the outset. I think our character creation is good. I don't know if there is anything I can say I am rock star proud of. As we speak, we are going through a revamp -- which is expected -- from the very first screen you see inside the game.
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Posted 10/14/2010 3:18:56 PMAlthough I'm not really much of a crafter most of the time, I'm eager to hear what they have in store for that as well.
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Posted 10/13/2010 10:32:39 PMI was really glad to hear that we should be hearing more about crafting soon.
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Posted 10/13/2010 5:20:12 PM...this pleases me.
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Posted 10/13/2010 2:09:08 AMRegardless. When i hear the words legacy system, it makes me think it will be multple systems for example, having legacy items and weapons passable from one character to the next once you reach max level. like heirloom items from wow but only as a reward from reaching max level. And not due to repeated grind of instances for badges ect. Said items could have different bonuses depending on how you approach the game. Also the decisions you make,how you approach the game content and how you level, (factions ect) As a Legacy is what you create and leave to those that come after you. Just some thoughts, as this is just speculation.
I am trying not to get caught up too much in the information that is NOT in a developers dispatch or released in a press release and is stamped "this is in the game" All in due time. I suspect there will be alot more information released after WoW new expantion is released. Patiently waiting for spring 2011.
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Posted 10/13/2010 6:21:37 PM- View User Profile
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Posted 10/12/2010 6:01:52 PMI can't understand why people are getting so upset about some of these comments though. BW have said many times that they are aware of the need for solid endgame systems, and just because they are talking about re-rolling doesn't mean that there will be no proper end-game.
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Posted 10/12/2010 5:59:59 PM- View User Profile
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Posted 10/12/2010 5:31:38 PM- View User Profile
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Posted 10/12/2010 5:29:17 PMit's clear that DS feels pvp (a typical endgame activity) is unhealthy (at least for him). how should we take the comments made about DAoC? was he just trying to say that tor offers more than just an endgame experience or is there more to it? is he trying to downplay the importance of endgame with these comments and promote rerolling alts and the legacy system? i guess time will tell.
for those who will say that it's too early to talk about the legacy system i would say that BW never talks about anything that won't be in the game. it will be in at some point, either at launch or patched in, and it will be incentivized in some way. it might be too early to talk about specifics, but just like with companions, just because they say it's optional they also say you would be gimping yourself not to use them in competitice play, i believe that those players opting to use the legacy system will have some gameplay advantage to do so.
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Posted 10/12/2010 6:37:30 PM- View User Profile
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Posted 10/13/2010 4:05:27 AM- View User Profile
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Posted 10/12/2010 2:33:36 PM"Slow down and enjoy the journey... we've got great VO and story!"
"But level up like crazy because we've got this great legacy system (no details) and you're gonna want these legacy cookies! Don't worry about your first character - heck don't even bother with paying attention to it's story... just get the legacy cookies unlocked so you can play the "real" character you want..."
/sigh ... pick a direction BioWare - if you try to be all things to all people you'll end up being nothing to no one.
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Posted 10/13/2010 5:23:42 PMJust my opinion, though.
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Posted 10/18/2010 5:06:14 PM- View User Profile
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Posted 10/12/2010 6:36:22 PMMaybe the angle they will take with legacy (and we have no idea what it is, but I'll speculate) is when you reach endgame/max level: your stats, gear, questing options (really any perk) will be no different than a Legacy character.
It will all round out towards the end of the story. They won't screw us and the attachment we formed with our first character. They won't become obsolete. And I don't think they will short-change us on end-game. They will appeal to a player who wants to re-roll or the player who wants to stick with his alt.
Just my opinion (allbeit high opinion) of what Bioware will do.