Darth Hater

Having only really played DAoC, and finishing up with that before the "trinity" term came into usage, I wonder and worry about this mechanic. A fan of offbeat play styles, I took a spearazon through solo hardcore guardian hell in Diablo 2 just for the challenge.

In DAoC my first character was a smite Cleric, which was crushed by Mythic because they wanted Clerics to be healers. All that happened was smite Clerics rerolled other classes or left the game.

I rerolled as a Paladin. A heavy armor wearing warrior I did well in PvP, until the determination skill was introduced that went to Mercenaries (off tanks), and Armsmen (heavy armor higher damage tanks, less defense), but NOT PALADINS WTF!!!! That meant we were often statues in PvP whilst the other tanks got to run around. So, that was the end of the Paladin era, except in PvE where they were still the supreme tank.

I didn't know about the trinity, but looking back, I see that it did exist, and gameplay changes introduced by Mythic pushed players further and further in that direction.

We have 8 advanced classes to choose from in TOR. That's a huge number, but my primary worry is, that if you are a Consular, much like my lost Cleric, you will be useless to groups and high end raiding, if you are not a healer. Will Smugglers be the Scouts of TOR? Scouts in DAoC were a pretty terrific solo class but not the best class for high end PvE or PvP grouping. They could not do as much damage as an Mercenary or a Wizard. Infiltrators suffered the same way.

How will a stealth class be useful in high end PvP? In games with direction attacks, Rogues often get very powerful attacks from behind that give them a huge DPS boost that is useful in high end PvE, but I am not familiar with any direction based attacks in TOR.

On the light side, are we going to be stuck requiring a Consular (healer), Jedi Guardian (tank) and then a Trooper or Sentinel as the off tank/dps? Are certain advanced classes and builds going to be left in the cold as they are in other games?

I've heard trinity from some of the devs but don't know where we are at with it in this game. Do people like it?

We've got 16 advanced classes, and I'd much rather just leave out the word advanced -- I'd consider the Scoundrel and Gunslinger the real classes, while Smuggler simply is the "archetype", which determines your storyline.

Hopefully BW will handle balancing well enough to make every single build as viable in its role as any other class, eg a Sawbones Scoundrel is just as effective at healing as a Combat Medic Commando, and an Immortal Juggernaut is as good a tank as a Darkness Assassin. No class should be better or worse at its role than the other!

Though I suppose there will always be the problem with balancing issues in MMOs. What, with millions of players doing both PvE and PvP while content is continuously updated and added.

That story sounded a lot like early WoW, which has since replaced that with a more balanced outlook on things. And no matter how different ToR is going to be, the basic setup is most likely going to be much the same as it simply works incredibly well. That is, there won't be an AoE tank, there won't be a specific off-tank and no specific main tank. Neither will there be a HEALER that can only be a healer and nothing else will count. There will naturally be variations of all the little bits. And I suspect that ToR will be less uniformed than WoW is at this time, but I'm certain that no raid will get cancelled because the Assassin tank didn't show up, or the Consular healer disconnected.

Role in TOR is determined by skill spec rather than class. Most classes have a spec for at least two roles. Commandos can be DPS or healers. Guardians can be tanks or DPS, etc.

Quote from Whitering »

my primary worry is, that if you are a Consular, much like my lost Cleric, you will be useless to groups and high end raiding, if you are not a healer.

How will a stealth class be useful in high end PvP? In games with direction attacks, Rogues often get very powerful attacks from behind that give them a huge DPS boost that is useful in high end PvE, but I am not familiar with any direction based attacks in TOR.

On the light side, are we going to be stuck requiring a Consular (healer), Jedi Guardian (tank) and then a Trooper or Sentinel as the off tank/dps? Are certain advanced classes and builds going to be left in the cold as they are in other games?

I've heard trinity from some of the devs but don't know where we are at with it in this game. Do people like it?

I have no idea what you're talking about with all this DAoC stuff, so I can't help you there.  I also don't understand the references nor can I make comparisons.

However, Consulars as a class are very versatile.  My Shadow is a pretty awesome tank.  I've been in groups several times where I had to take over from our Guardian or Vanguard tank because they weren't cutting it (I didn't just jump in, of course.  I asked or someone suggested it.)  This could also be a matter of skill & awareness, but this is my first MMO.  I don't really think I should be out-skilling anyone already.  

Consulars can fill all three slots of the trinity (as can Troopers, Bounty Hunters, and Inquisitors).  Sages & Shadows seem capable of excellent damage from their respective ranges.  Sages are pretty good healers, but I didn't like playing one.  I more than prefer the Operative or the Combat Medic.  As I mentioned, Shadows can also tank.

Stealth is also highly effective in PvP.  Again, I don't know what a Rogue is, but Shadows/Scoundrels/Operatives/Assassins do very well in PvP when they utilise the stealth mechanic.  This is especially true for Scoundrels & Operatives who have a lot of stuns.  They don't always fair as well when against a group, but that's what you've got teammates for, I guess.

Certain ACs may get left out in the cold, but I don't really see that happening other than pure ignorance and arrogance .  As far as I can tell, BioWare has done a pretty bang up job with balancing them all out.  I'm not a min-maxer, however, so I'm sure there are those that would disagree with me.  In my experience with MMO communities, there are a lot of sheep and a lot of people that simply refuse to accept that not everyone wants to use the cookie cutter build found on X site.  My advice would be for you to find a guild that doesn't care about that stuff.  I know that I could really care less about my members' class/ACs/skill trees.  I find it better that people be able to play whatever it is that they want and how they want.  It's a game; have fun with it.  I'd also submit that Consulars/Sorcerers aren't the best healers out there.  They have some really good abilities, but I think a Medicine/Sawbones follower could beat them.  I'm also seeing a very gradual increase in the amount of Operatives on my server.  I think that's a good sign.  Agents ftw.

Do I like the trinity?  No, I loathe it with every fibre of my being.  I would prefer much more leniency with how I construct my characters' skills rather than be sitting in front of my skill tree thinking "what makes me the best tank?"  Does the trinity work?  Yes, it does.  If you don't want to confine yourself as much, then I'd just classify yourself as DPS.  Maybe you can off-tank/off-heal depending on your Advanced Class, but maybe you don't want to.  DPS gives you a lot more freedom than the other two slots, in my opinion.  As the tank, people are relying on me to keep them out of harm's way as much as I can, so I can't always afford to put that one skill point wherever I want.  The same goes with my healer.

Quote from FeskMunk »

We've got 16 advanced classes, and I'd much rather just leave out the word advanced -- I'd consider the Scoundrel and Gunslinger the real classes, while Smuggler simply is the "archetype", which determines your storyline.

Hopefully BW will handle balancing well enough to make every single build as viable in its role as any other class, eg a Sawbones Scoundrel is just as effective at healing as a Combat Medic Commando, and an Immortal Juggernaut is as good a tank as a Darkness Assassin. No class should be better or worse at its role than the other!

That look on the classes is very accurate.  Good work!  

The only striking view of inaccuracy that I can see now is that Combat Medics & Bodyguards don't get an in-combat revive.  This is somewhat limiting as a healer, but all Sages, Sorcerers, Scoundrels, and Operatives get the in-combat revive ability, so hopefully there are enough of those ACs in your group to help you out.  I'd also prefer to bring a Scoundrel healer with my Combat Medic to be safe in an Operation, though.  Combat Medics and Bodyguards might get the shaft for Flashpoints, however.

Please... let the thread die. This was a speculation thread from a time when we had little hard information. People know what classes can and can't do now.