Darth Hater

Now, I know this has been touched on before under speculation, but now that the NDA is no longer choking our info I thought I'd kick this off.

While I realize that the saber types (double, dual, and single) are supposed to give quick visual que's to what the class your fighting is...did they really have to shove these things down our throats? I had been looking forward to playing a Jedi Shadow and rather imagined my character to be hunting down the Sith and their artifacts and craftily putting myself in a position to destroy them with a single strike, perhaps from Form VII. However, looking over the talent tree's it becomes obvious that this will not happen.

Both 'Shadow Technique' and 'Low Slash' in the infiltration tree require a double-bladed saber to use. Consequently 'Clairvoyant Strike' the tree's pinnacle is useless to anyone who doesn't use the double bladed saber. There is also the passive 'Double-Bladed Saber Defense' in the kinetic tree, though there is no mention of whether it's useless with any other saber style.

Now...to be honest, this really pisses me off. What part of the double bladed saber lends itself to stealth? The hilt is by necessity longer, it takes more power, they're notoriously difficult to make, and proper usage of the things requires the acrobatic Form IV, ataru. The double-bladed saber does not lend itself to a single crushing blow delivered from the shadows. Hell, the only reason Darth Maul supposedly even considered using one was an in your face to the Jedi he killed using it because of it's difficulty.

I can only imagine that there are similar wails to be had for other classes and their chosen saber loadouts, but I thought I'd throw this out there for my personal gripe, seeing as half the upper tier of the infiltration talents are worthless without the damn things. Is it possible to use a single bladed saber without utterly crippling the class? And for other classes, can they use non-class specific styles without being crippled?

If they weren't "shoved down our throats", the visual queues you mentioned wouldn't exist.  These queues are rather important, as they give players at least an inkling of what they are facing, particularly in PVP.

Personally, I have no issue whatsoever with Bioware's decision.  To compare the technique of someone from 3000+ years in the future to the common practices of force users in SWTOR is, even in a fantasy/sci-fi setting, somewhat rediculous. 

If you consider that the "martial art" of America just 20 years ago was boxing, and that it's been nearly completely replaced in popularity by Mixed Martial Arts, which is a constantly evolving form of combat with numerous styles even amongst the highest level of practicioner, it's not difficult to imagine that in over three millenia lightsaber styles would change many many times.

First, there are other ways they could have provided those clues out, be they iconic skills, colors, clothing appearance, etc. I think if you're up against a class that pops out of invisibility and wields some sort of saber than odds are that it's either a Shadow or an Assassin. The reason I'm upset they used sabers to make this visual que is because it's a weapon that defines the wielder's combat style. As I mentioned previously, the double-bladed saber does not lend itself to a stealthy class that slams a massively damaging blow after popping out of the shadows. The weapon is simply unwieldy.

Second, your point about the evolution of combat styles. This might be valid, except that both the Jedi Order and the Sith basically enshrined the classic Lightsaber Forms from their inception via holocrons and other methods. This is because the Forms do exactly what they're designed to do and are easy to branch from. An example would be Form II, Makashi, which was created after the schism between Jedi and Sith (when the two seperated from one whole Order) and was designed to combat other lightsaber wielders. Consequently, it is still used many many thousand years later by lightsaber duelists (Count Dooku is famous for being a master of this Form). That is not to say there aren't any other Forms for the time period (Mace Windu's Vapaad, a modernized variant of Juyo).

Though I suppose all this may be a moot point for you. Your argument sounds rather like someone who is more into playing a game rather than a Lore purist or roleplayer who would rather choose his/her own saber and style.

I think it's great and all having such a distinct visual indicator, but I do hate deep insided how I can't use a dual bladed lightsaber myself as a Jedi Guardian.

I do agree and wish we had the opportunity to choose our own sabers/forms. I have played as a shadow doing good damage, but I have thought about building one that is hybrid and using a single blade, just to see if it makes that much of a difference. And on the note about the Jedi Guardian...it would be awesome to use a Double Bladed Saber on that class. Maybe after launch if many of us request such changes and add-ons, they will do it in a patch or expansion.

A couple things:

Double-Bladed Lightsabers are not Ataru, they are either there own style OR use a modified version of whatever the Jedi/Sith in question naturally use, depending on the source you read.

Double-Bladed Lightsabers are, according to canon, quite popular at the time and are known for their speed and unpredictability, making them ideal for for Assassination as both traits are useful in that regard.

Most Jedi and Sith only really master 1-2 forms during their lives so it makes a lot of game play sense to restrict various forms and equipment to classes.

Most importantly, it has always been LucasArts stance that games do not have to follow canon precisely since they recognize that being forced to do so would make game designing all the much more difficult. Virtually everything about Lightsaber combat comes from reference works anyway, which are rather dubious in canon anyway, and they certainly aren't based on anything George Lucas has ever said or devised.

Honestly, the reason they are doing it this way, and are not going to change it, has nothign to do with visual ques, it is to drastically reduce the amount of items they have to program.

Doorofright:

First, I mentioned Ataru because of its inherent agility and mobility....which is what the double-bladed saber requires.

Second, while the sabers might have been popular my point still stands that they don't lend themselves to a stealthed playstyle. Your argument assumes that the Assassins (or Shadows in this case) will more often than not find themselves in prolonged combat. While I do not deny that prolonged combat may occur, the idea that the pro's of using a double-bladed saber for a single facet of your entire job and accepting the cons for everything else is somewhat laughable, especially when you realize that the double-bladed saber styles require a lot of room to move in, something that would not always be present. I don't deny that the double-bladed saber is effective, I simply point out that it is not ideal for stealth based class. You also assume that an assassin needs to be fast and unpredictable (not true) or that they require the double-bladed saber to become so (not true).

Third, this is true, however they do touch on all the forms regardless, and while I understand Bioware restricting some forms from being mastered by some classes I don't think we should be denied their basic use. Nor do I think that Bioware should get to choose which Forms we get to become masters of. The second part of this arguement...well, I've mentioned before how I don't deny such things are necessary, but I am upset that they choose the most important piece of your loadout for you. There are other methods to use.

Third. This is also true, and also the reason a lot of people are not exactly fans of LucasArts. However 'dubious' the accepted Forms of lightsaber combat are, the fact of the matter is that it is accepted as general cannon. And frankly, like many people, I'm of the opinion that George Lucas needs to step away from the SW universe so he doesn't bungle anything else up.

And finally, I can understand making the game easier to program. However, again, the lightsaber is probably the most iconic weapon of the entire universe, so to deny people options when it comes to this most iconic item is going to make people upset. We're talking people who have playing the paper and pencil RP game of Star Wars for over a decade. Not to mention all the kids who use to pretend they were killing those nasty bad guys with their awesome lightsaber.

Still, your arguments are pretty good.

I agree that George Lucas needs to step away from the Star Wars Universe, but at the same LucasArts needs to have more top down control over their IP. They are getting a little better about it, but it is still rediculous and has caused a lot problems.

The fact is that the vast majority of the material in the Expanded Universe is Fan Fiction given official sanction, which is not to say parts of it aren't very well written, but most authors seem to latch onto something they like about the Universe and run with it and LucasArts just lets them and since it is published under their auspices that makes it canon unless Lucas, LucasArts, or the movies/TV-shows contradict it.

Take Legacy of the Force, you had Aaron Allston who likes writing about fighter pilots, Karen Traviss who likes writing about Mandalorians, and Troy Denning who seems to favor dealing with questions of what exactly the Force is. I know there are certain fan opinions on each of these authors which I will not delve into, but at the heart of the issue is the fact that there are HUGE tonal shifts in what is supposed to be a unified series and the whole thing is disjointed. That lack of top down organization kind of worked for the New Jedi Order series, since it dealt with such a huge war, it was easy to focus on different people and different reactions, and the authors of that seemed to actually talk to each other and plan things out.

There is of course, also the example of things like Lightsaber Forms, personally I like the idea, but it is based on people noticing that different characters fought differently, all from the stunt team teachign each actor different sets of moves based on what the ACTOR was good at doing and to reflect the character. I mean, the reason Form II is very fencing in oriented is that Christopher Lee hasn't just played lots of characters who have ended up in sword fights, he is actually a trained fencer.

Anyway, I agree that I wish there were more choices of what you could use in terms of lightsabers but I doubt that is going to happen since Bioware has said quite often that while they are trying to stay as close to established canon wherever they can, ultimately there are certain practical and gameplay consideration which must take precedence.

I can't help but agree to your point, if only so that Vector Prime never happens and Chewbacca gets to live...curse you R.A. Salvator.

Unfortunately I suppose we'll have to hope we get to choose in an expansion or something.

Chewie was useless in the EU leading up to the NJO anyways. He was basically the family dog whose only role was babysitting the Solo kids or fixing the Falcon. He was the most expendable of the main hero group.

Maybe we need a topic just for the EU discussion. I love the New Jedi Order, and consider it the peak of the Expanded Universe. I haven't read "Legacy of the Force", but shoehorning Jacen Solo into a Darth Vader role seems a bit much.

Quote from RogueJedi86 »

Chewie was useless in the EU leading up to the NJO anyways. He was basically the family dog whose only role was babysitting the Solo kids or fixing the Falcon. He was the most expendable of the main hero group.

 

Maybe we need a topic just for the EU discussion. I love the New Jedi Order, and consider it the peak of the Expanded Universe. I haven't read "Legacy of the Force", but shoehorning Jacen Solo into a Darth Vader role seems a bit much.

I have read almost nothing of the EU, but have a friend who has read pretty much all of it, and I follow information about it a good deal. From everything I have heard it sounds like New Jedi Order is, by and large, extremely well liked by a lot of people, with some quibbles here or there.

Legacy of the Force is LucasArts trying to to recreate the popularity of NJO but with a much more linear story and where it seems that none of the three writers ever talked to each other or made little attempt at planning things out ahead of time like the writers of NJO did. The result is widely regarded as a complete clusterfrak that started well but through tons of established characterization out the window and rather than making Jacen a logical and reasonable evil he goes pretty crazy too, depending on the writer.

Long story short they tried to replicate NJO's success while making it a little more compact(one of the few complaints I've heard about the NJO, its a little unweildy) but basically throwing all of its virtues out the window.

Fate of the Jedi seems to have a bit more top down control and the writers are at least talking to each other but it sounds rather. . .convoluted, to say the least.

Quote from Encore27 »

First, there are other ways they could have provided those clues out, be they iconic skills, colors, clothing appearance, etc. I think if you're up against a class that pops out of invisibility and wields some sort of saber than odds are that it's either a Shadow or an Assassin. The reason I'm upset they used sabers to make this visual que is because it's a weapon that defines the wielder's combat style. As I mentioned previously, the double-bladed saber does not lend itself to a stealthy class that slams a massively damaging blow after popping out of the shadows. The weapon is simply unwieldy.

Second, your point about the evolution of combat styles. This might be valid, except that both the Jedi Order and the Sith basically enshrined the classic Lightsaber Forms from their inception via holocrons and other methods. This is because the Forms do exactly what they're designed to do and are easy to branch from. An example would be Form II, Makashi, which was created after the schism between Jedi and Sith (when the two seperated from one whole Order) and was designed to combat other lightsaber wielders. Consequently, it is still used many many thousand years later by lightsaber duelists (Count Dooku is famous for being a master of this Form). That is not to say there aren't any other Forms for the time period (Mace Windu's Vapaad, a modernized variant of Juyo).

Though I suppose all this may be a moot point for you. Your argument sounds rather like someone who is more into playing a game rather than a Lore purist or roleplayer who would rather choose his/her own saber and style.

I agree.

They could've used other things as visual queues.  I personally don't like being forced to use something.  I personally believe that Lightsabers should be something more of a choice for you personally and not just your class.  I also think that 1 handed and 2 handed style should be something of your choice as is whether you want to put your hood up or down on your cloak.  I've thought from the beginning that these things should be implemented.

They very well might be in future patches/expansions.

I'd like to be able to use the lightsabre or weapon of my choice as well.  For me, it's not about the lightsabre forms but about the personality of the weapon.  Creating a lightsabre is a very personal and difficult task.  As a Jedi, I want to be able to use the weapon that speaks to me, the type of lightsabre that I want to use, and be able to use it regardless of my "class."  In my case, I would use a double-bladed lightsabre across the board.  I love it, think it's far more interesting than the other lightsabre types, and constantly reminds me of my favourite Jedi/Sith who use the weapon.  The fact that it requires further specialisation is something that I enjoy as well.  Actually, at first, I chose to play a Shadow purely for the double-bladed lightsabre.  It just so happens that I love the class as well.  I don't expect these restrictions to ever change, though.

From an RP perspective, I know nothing of this pencil and paper stuff.  I've never even seen a game (if you would call is a game) like that before.  In terms of writing a story with the in-game character, you could certainly have your character choose to only ignite one end of the lightsabre, if the situation needs it.  That's up to you as the author.  In the actual game, you would just have to deal with it since there's no other alternative, excluding gimping your class and making some kind of forced hybrid to neglect the double-bladed lightsabre.

Also, using Form VII as a Jedi is rather curious.