Darth Hater

So I've heard a lot of comments that "SWTOR is exactly like WOW" and by extension the raids will be carbon copies of the one that are in WoW. (Not strictly copied and pasted, but using similar mechanics, objectives, etc.)

I have several questions for the forum:

1) What raid is still "fun" to play if loot was not a factor? (Pretend the loot drops are totally irrelevant to your character.)

2) What kind of Raid Mechanics/Objectives/Structures would you want to see in a raid?

3) What have raids done right in the past that you like seeing repeated?

4) Where have raids totally failed, what mechanic do you never want to see in a raid again?

I ask these questions because when I hear people talk about raids it sounds cognitively dissonant.  People hate raiding and only do so for raid gear, but people want raid gear and feel obligated to raid for it.

I would like to see dynamic raids. It would have been much better to have a group battle waves of enemies rather than one big boss.

Also, tend to feel more epic. When you are fighting and defeating several foes, rather than playing hit the pinata for a few minutes on one enemy.

Quote from Raithnor
I ask these questions because when I hear people talk about raids it sounds cognitively dissonant.  People hate raiding and only do so for raid gear, but people want raid gear and feel obligated to raid for it.

I am someone who enjoys raids.

I like teamwork, coordination, and skill.

Ideally raid encounters should feel epic. Blizzard tried to make encounters feel epic by overemphasizing the size of the boss and by having raid encounters in large rooms. That did not always work.

40 people.

Having multiple teams split off from the main group to tackle different objectives. My favorite fight in all of WotLK content was Thorim, not because of the overacting, but because of the intense coordination required.

Maybe also there could be a mechanic where in order to expose a weakness in a droid opponent, a skilled slicer would have to hack into a local system (while solving various little puzzles in order to complete the objective), and when complete, will expose a weakness in the defenses that will last for X seconds. Eventually, the robot will be so damaged that it's own wiring is exposed for the slicer to hack into, while the rest of the raid has to contain it in some kind of electric field while holding off mini-droids/adds.

To be fair, your perspective is one from outside the raiding paradigm.  10 mans aren't actually raids, they're large groups.  The very name of the concept denotes a large group of people, which 10 is not in almost any context, let alone in a co-op PvE environment.  Further, you haven't actually experienced the meat, let alone the bulk, of raiding content to really appreciate what it can and should do.  Your suggestions about what raids should be is what they already are -- just last night we were doing Heroic Conclave on 25 man and spent the majority of our time debating just the logistics of the fight.  Who should move where, when, and what we needed to succeed for the encounter.  You should probably be looking at an additional layer to the raiding paradigm, rather than emphasizing something that already exists, like WoW was to EQ rather than Rift is to WoW.

If I were you, I'd give raiding a shot.  Pick up a 25 man WoW group, knock some hard modes out, and see what it's like to kill a mob by the skin of your teeth.  It's a much more satisfying experience than simply strolling in to some e-z mode 10 man for a 5 minute gang rape.

Quote from Errata
I think you're trying to say that 10 mans aren't raids.  I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that.

10 mans definitely are raids.

I have mixed feelings about them. I prefer larger format raids, but find that 10 mans offer greater flexibility and cohesion. It is definitely possible for a well-designed encounter to feel epic in a smaller setting.

I enjoyed 10 mans over 25's, because in 25's it always seemed like there were those jerks that complained and such. In 10 mans you really have get along with everyone so people often seemed nicer and more attentive. Some of my favorite fights were Yogg and Sindragosa because they required good communication and the mechanics were not the usual "you have a disease dont touch other people, don't stand in fire, etc"

Well, I always preferred the short raids. no matter if 10 or 25 people. You get together, go into the instance, beat up some boss(es) get loot, go out. Sure wastnig time with trash can be fun, but I do have a lief next to the games and I try to balance them, especially with work. So raiding for four hours straight is not really an option for me, especially since most is about statistics anyway. you know the boss, you know its attacks it is all automatisation. Go there, cast that spell, move to the side three steps, jump twice, chain heal the offtank, two steps back. lesser healing wave on the dd who got aggro, jump, riptide, healing wave, earth shieled on main tank, run to the other side of the room, riptide, activate heroism, evade the big red circle on the wall and so on. (I know it is not working, I need to add the dispel and more lhws as well as more riptides, details.)

Honestly, one of the most fun Raids I ever had was our first in Rifts. We did not know what awaits us, we did not know what to do, we just had to try and try. I also liked some of the mini-games in the raids. Like in WoW when you attack Leviathan in the small tanks. Or when you beat up that big dragon while ridnig smaller dragons.... though that was always hard to coordinate. Some people do not grasp the concept of free 3D movement....
also liked that one quest in the early Rift instance, where you capture ghosts wit your sticks and pull them to the trap.
So generally I like things that are fun and do not need you to be clad in the most powerful stuff and specced exactly like it is written in this or that guide.

Those were in my eyes funny and way more entertaining then your usual dps, heal, tank bosses.
Though having seen the Developer walk-through of Taral V, it seems to be the same old story. Four guys beating up a boss and his adds. One making sure the other three do not get attacked, two doing damage to the Bosses/Adds and one healing them all.

Quote from DarthOuranos
Having multiple teams split off from the main group to tackle different objectives. My favorite fight in all of WotLK content was Thorim, not because of the overacting, but because of the intense coordination required.

This.

I had been thinking about what a raid could mean in the Star Wars Universe and the thing that struck me the most is that many of the larger movie events involve multiple smaller groups accomplishing different objectives at the same time. Han, Leia, Chewie,  the droids and a thousand Ewoks break into the Imperial bunker on Endor (again) while Luke faces off against Vader and Sidious on the Death Star as Lando and Nien Nunb on the Falcon lead an assault to destroy that same space station. In ANH, the droids shut down all the garbage smashers on the detention level while Han, Chewie and Luke help Leia effect her escape from the Death Star; meanwhile, Obi Wan effectively serves as a distraction for Vader, keeping him away from the Falcon's fleeing crew.

You see what I mean? It seems like each of the movies uses several small teams working at the same time to accomplish a goal that all of the teams share in common. Escape from the Death Star, defeat the Empire, get everyone off Hoth while mitigating losses to the Empire, etc. It seems like this sort of multi-team coordination has a big place to play in SW raiding.

That being said, as an experienced raider (in all the various sizes of WoW raids and yes, all of them are "real raids"), there is a very strong place for traditional "bunch of folks beat up on a boss" raid fights in SWTOR. However, I have to provide the caveat that the raid bosses that are less like the bosses we've seen in the Taral V videos (which seem to be more of a "stand there, hold aggro, and beat the snot out of it" type of fight) and more like the current "puzzle" bosses in WoW, where each boss has a procedure or trick or strategy that is key to its defeat. To me, learning fights and learning to execute their particular "trick" is the primary joy in raiding, whether it's Heigan's dance mechanic, movement and position on the Crazy Cat Lady,  or timing on the Defile and Val'kyr during the Arthas fight, this last WoW expansion provided a lot of "tricks" that, once understood, became the key to the fight. But, really, that's raiding. Or at least, it should be.

I guess what I'm saying is that, for traditional raid bosses, they should be bosses that require heightened situational awareness and an ability to adapt to changing circumstances.

Quote from DarthOuranos
Having multiple teams split off from the main group to tackle different objectives. My favorite fight in all of WotLK content was Thorim, not because of the overacting, but because of the intense coordination required.

Maybe also there could be a mechanic where in order to expose a weakness in a droid opponent, a skilled slicer would have to hack into a local system (while solving various little puzzles in order to complete the objective), and when complete, will expose a weakness in the defenses that will last for X seconds. Eventually, the robot will be so damaged that it's own wiring is exposed for the slicer to hack into, while the rest of the raid has to contain it in some kind of electric field while holding off mini-droids/adds.

This is, in fact, exactly what I have been thinking about aswell. The concept of being a number of people that plays together does not have to equal that they stick together physically through all the fights. Granted, I did quit playing right about when the raiding in WOTLK started, but it seems to me as if this concept can be developed quite abit further than where it stands today. Imagine that the sub-groups of the raids (that usually just matter to get buffs and so on correctly) would actually have to accomplish separate things. So that while three teams move away to take out three separate power stations guarded by some hard mobs/bosses another main group must stand and hold back a massive assault of some kind. The success of the main group would not be binary so that they either make it or dont, but rather that their performance actively influence the level of difficulty for the other teams and so on.

Naturally this thinking can be expanded and also combined with more "traditional" raiding. Indeed it could also be used down to the individual level so that in a normal flashpoint individual members would have to accomplish things in order for the group to complete certain missions. In Star Wars it also makes perfect sense to split up in teams assuming there is both hightech communication as well as the force meaning that in theory the raid does not even have to have all groups on the same planet. Like Ohnias said about the Endor battle in Return of the Jedi this is a concept that seems to work good in films, and I know for sure that I would love it in a game.

At the same time I would have to agree that there is a special joy of learning combats and boss strategies for epic half hour encounters with one enemy, but still I think the above scenario does not contradict such encounters. Also this could mean a new way of engaging in cooperative elements in MMORPGS in general challenging the trinity, not by abolishing it but by making sure that all "types" of classes would contribute with what they do best while still feeling very actively involved with an epic event. Thus being the healer who constantly have to keep a group of DPS up so that they can take out trash waves on one location directly influence the attacking ability of someone else, somewhere else.

I think it could be great.

PS. I am a long time healer and I really have no problem with the trinity, infact I very much like it and I enjoy keeping people alive be it in "normal" raids or whatever. DS

Honestly seeing that the Flashpoint groups are 4 players, I think that all raid group sizes will be based off that. So maybe 8 player and 20 player raids. What ever the number I would love for the raids to have objectives and not just be a large mob or boss creature that has to be destroyed. It can work in some encounters in TOR but overall I think it is counter to the spirit of Star Wars and the spirit of what I think Bioware is doing. I have faith though that they will produce raid content that will be challenging and at the same time different from what we have seen in WoW.

If there are ever single-boss fights in raids -- which given that there are world bosses, there will be -- they need to believable in the context of the setting.

One of the great things about battling dragons in classic WoW was that you could fully believe that it would take 40 people to kill one.

One of the problems with battling Cho'Gall in current WoW is that, in terms of story he's just supposed to be an ogre. Yet, they made him humongous. Something I, at least, never fully bought into. (Would have made it more compelling if he remained ogre-sized, imo.)

Well in regards to Cho'Gall he is not just a two headed Ogre Mage. He is the two Headed Ogre Mage that has been the leader of the Twilight Hammer since it was a clan on Draenor. He has been killed at least twice now only to be "Resurected" by his masters the Old Gods. Thus the reason I can see him being a one boss encounter.

That brings up a valid point though. Lore and storyline can explain a lot when it comes to a raid encounter but if players do not read the story or are not aware of it then the encounter has to work without player awareness.

Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear as to why I had problems with the Cho'Gall encounter.

I had no problem with 25 people going against Cho'Gall the resurrected powerful ogre warlock. I can totally understand why a spell caster, in a fantasy setting, would make a good raid boss.

What I did have a problem with was the fact that Blizzard made Cho'Gall so friggin huge. It is ridiculous how large he is. I think it would be a more compelling encounter if he was normal-sized.

Making a boss physically large does not make a boss epic. At some point, for some encounters, it can feel cartoonish.