This thread was TL;DR all of it but here are my thoughts:
1) I expect the best gear to come from raids because raids require the most collective effort. When you have raid gear not only does it show you've "beaten" the encounter, it shows that you participated in the encounter as one part of a collective team.... at least, it should in theory. I read the idea of Endgame crafting supporting PVP and Endgame raids supporting PVE - and I think this solves the problem well... But if "the Best" PVE gear is crafted A) There's less of a reason for some people to Raid, and B) You're setting the Raiders up for failure, and #2 is why....
2) Raids should always be progressive. Max level instances should sufficiently gear you for the "Entry level raids" or at least the start of the raid. The entry level raid should gear you for later bosses in that raid, and that gear should prepare you for the next tier raid. But we're not only talking about Gear here, we're talking about practice in coordination and problem solving as a group... If a raider can enter the "Endgame Stream" late in the available tiers through crafting, that player has the potential to pull down the raid because they have the equipment without the practical proficiency participating in raids at a high level.
3) I raid for two main reasons: A) The challenge of coordinating a group, and being victorious and B) Having that weapon or armor item that 2% of the population on your server has and standing outside the Auction House with it. I think I would still raid without the chance of gear, but I doubt I would easily be able to find 24 other players who will show up 1-2 times a week for the more challenging content without that allure of high level gear.
4) I would be comfortable with Top Tier gear coming from crafters in the form of Rings, Necklaces and Trinkets -- Let the Armor and Weapons come from boss drops.
5) Think outside the box in boss battles -- I want to have to "figure out" how to beat the boss ,,, nothing beats a good race for a "server first" when new content is released.
Shouldn't this go into the loot vs. crafted gear topic?
Anyway I have to agree, figuring out how to beat content is the fun part, but usually one group does that once, then everyone is expected to read up the strategy guides and perform as expected.
While entry raid sounds like fun first, it gets hard to find anyone willing to do them if there have been 5 newer ones out for some time already. And running a low end raid over and over just to get to the not so low end raid in a month... that won't make people want to do it and thus possibly cancel their subscription, meaning less money, meaning less content.
I do not think anyone wants the best PVE gear to be crafted (with the exception of being crafted with stuf from raids, that actually would mean even more social interaction and coordination). I think generally people want a way to get "current" raid ready gear without doing the old (boring to them) content. Roll a new character, breeze him to 50, get some million credits from your main, buy armour, weapon, stuff from a crafter / the AH. Apply to a guild to get into the endgame raiding.
Though we (or at least I) digress here. We should talk about what we want to see in a raid.
What does TL;DR mean though? Sorry for the possibly stupid question.
It means "Too Long; Didn't Read". As in he made his post without reading this topic at all. And yet he then expects us to read his long post that belongs in another thread. Maybe if he'd read the topic instead of doing TL;DR he'd have noticed his post belongs in the "Loot vs. Crafted Gear" topic. :P
I'll refrain from replying to him here since all the arguments I've made are over there. But he'll likely pull a TL;DR over there too. :P
1) Personally, I had the most fun in Karazhan and Ulduar. I think story and mood played a pretty big part - which totally has me foaming at the mouth for TOR - but also, I found both of those raids had an excellent progression pace.
Quote from Monostodon »
I know this might get shot down as an idea for a MMORPG, but I personally thought the endgame for Mass Effect 2 reflected the future not only of engaging CRPG content but also MMO PvE.
We saw elements of this in Ulduar's Thorim encounter, with one group responsible for clearing the hallway, and the others watching the main ring. I'm all for this type of thing. I'd also like to see anything which makes raiding feel like I'm playing a Star Wars movie. Encounters need to be fast-paced and intense. It may seem silly and unimportant, but great, Star Wars-y mood music would add much to my enjoyment of raiding.
3) As I said above, I thought Karazhan and Ulduar did right in terms of setting the mood with music and art design as well as having a good progression pace. My guild must have wiped on Mimiron a hundred times, but each attempt was slightly better than the last, and when we finally downed him, it felt really awesome. I also loved the way Ulduar hard modes were done. It was very organic and seamless.
4) ToC was just awful, in my opinion. The normal modes were just way too easy, the whole thing took place in the same room, the music and scripted stuff got annoying pretty quickly. I admit Heroic Anub was pretty fun, but a) the limited ice orb thing totally should have been normal mode, and b) it sucked to have to wade through all the other un-fun garbage to get to the one good fight. Boss #1 [i]has[/i] to be fun, not a chore.
I also wasn't a big fan of Hyjal - it just felt like a lot of pointless trash farming - but I understand I might be in the minority there.
Hm, I recently started to look into forsaken world and saw the neatest thing there. A raid, well instance, where you do not need any stats. It is based purely on skill (very little mind you) to beat it.
So I would not mind seeing a raid like that. Where everyone has to think, combine and react instead of looking up a gear guide and run rotations. In this Instance you had like to follow a healing area through a gas-chamber, dieing if you stay out of it for about 5-8 seconds. Or have to balance out scales with people, where races weight different amounts and you have to calculate (not really hard, still some people manage to get it wrong).
I know how much peoole love swinging swords or shooting and see big number fly over the enemies heads, but a more "skill" based approach would be interesting. You try to manage 15 people to split up, only kill certain mobs (not too many) and all of that in some seconds. At least in my eyes it would be a nice change of the usual trash, boss, trash, boss, trash, big boss, Instance lock.
25 man in wow gave a real different feeling to raiding, an i liked that, 25 was also way harder, more people more mistakes. But blizzard took that away, i hope SWTOR will watch out for that, just put 25 man raids in the game, and make them harder then 10 man versions and ofc give them better loot. I also played wow for a long time and now i would like to switch to SWTOR and creating my own guild, I would appreciate it if people would like to join. It is called the Umbran Conclave. Its PvE, EU server. Hopefully i can atchieve large group raiding with this guild :)
Well, if they picked one raid size, then they would damper how many people actually get to see the content. Blizz did a good job with the change to raiding in Cata going 10/25 so that those guilds who had the numbers could afford to gear more people, while the smaller guilds could also raid the content as well. That is how you get people in to see your content, rather than making the bar a pure number game that large guilds can faceroll into without much effort, and the small guilds get left in the dust.
Lots of people saw raid content in vanilla WoW when the raid size was 40. Again, I'll hold that it is effectively impossible to balance raid content for different raid sizes.
There are also other drawbacks. If raid sizes are small, then ACs that can switch roles will be preferred over pure dps ACs. If raid sizes are large, then raiding guilds will necessarily need to be fairly large, and that presents its own problems.
By my count 3 out of 8 AC can tank, 3 out of 8 AC can provide heals, and 8 out 8 AC can DPS. 6 out of the 8 AC can switch roles and 2 out of 8 AC cannot. There are a couple reasons this doesn't have me worried:
<list type="ordered">[*]For the Sniper, the Marksmanship tree seems to focus on direct damage from the safety of cover whereas the Engineering tree seems to focus on AOE damage and debuffs. It may be valuable to the raid to have both types of damage available (and debuffs are always useful).[*]As long as the pure DPS ACs top the DPS class curve, even by 3% to 5%, min/max guilds will want to bring along pure DPSers.[*]Just because an AC can switch roles doesn't mean the player will be good at both roles. I plan on playing an Operative, but have always been DPS in other MMO's, so I doubt I'll be a good healer (at least until I spend a bunch of time learning the ropes).[/list]
Versatility is useful in a small guild, but pure DPS ACs can always role an alt to fill a void. I plan on rolling a couple Alts for kicks and giggles.
Beyond what edgesarmy outlined, respecs are only currently available by going to Coruscant/Dromund Kaas and paying the trainer for a respec, per one of Georg Zoeller's posts. Switching specs for different boss fights turns into a logistical nightmare, so I don't think we'll see much of that.
In terms of raid size, we are probably looking at 16, which is the total number of specs per faction. Four groups of four also seems nice and symmetrical. I don't think every spec will be necessary, since there are three tanking specs but one will probably be sufficient.
Small raids does have a certain problem in mechanics. You are quite literally limited in what you can throw at the raid.
Lady Vashj would be an impossibility with 8-10 while it would be utterly insane at 16. And that fight was very much about not moving in a pattern. It was all about teamwork and knowing when to act in the right fashion, and of course having the right people for the required jobs. The fewer people you can bring, the more it will become 'don't stand in the fire' mechanics, or DPS X down before Y happens. Might also want to take a look at Magtheridon (which initially was more of a chore I admit, but the point stands). This is partially because of the unbalanced nature Blizzard put into the healer and tank requirements. In 10man it was a full 50% (2 tanks and 3 healers, often with one healer and one tank speccing back and forth, but prior to easy respecs each encounter had to be doable with that setup), while in 25man it was much less with 3 tanks and 7ish healers. This naturally gave the 25man group more DPS to 'throw away' on mechanic tasks, while a similarly downscaled version for 10man would either have to be less troublesome overall or it would drain too many people from the group.
And while smaller means more individual requirement at relatively low skillrequirement, at higher skillrequirements it is the opposite, as if one death in 25 can create a wipe, then it is that much more problematic (in fact 2.5 times more so compared to 10). Assuming all the raiders are equally likely to die.
BioWare has a golden opportunity here, they are free of previous mistakes or limitations, so hopefully they can create engaging mechanics that will not appear to be limited by the number of people present. That was my main gripe with the small raids in WoW, they were quite literally not as thrilling. Though a number of encounters like Sartharion 3D in 10 man (in the beginning), Mimiron Hard and a couple in Kara and Zul'Aman were downright spectacular. So there are options for making the smaller number a factor that doesn't feel like a limitation, but instead present the group with a hard choice. An example would be Thorim. He was considerably harder in 25, but not because of mechanics, they were in fact nearly perfect for 10man. And while the fight itself was nothing to write home about, it had the right idea about how to challenge smaller groups, where in 25 it was basically just "all those to the left of Jake you go to the tunnel."
OK my idea for raids is making them epic. Sure you can have a boss but as a cherry on the sunday so to speak. Epic battles are truly that, epic. In size, look at just about any star wars movie, you reel with them because the fights are so intense. This is what I want from my raid.
Episode III gives very big battle ideas for raids, have a hugs space battle which culminates into entering the enemies battleship, fighting through waves til you kill the last of them. Or any of the battle scenes you see when order 66 is given.
Also, give me solo epic raids (think episode IV) like when obi wan snuck around and faced Vader on his own. Obviously it didn't work out that well for him, but you get the idea.
Not going to happen. Space combat is optional. Technically raiding is optional too, but I'm quite certain that in this context the optional means that it isn't something you need to progress in anything of importance. More like a sideshow for fun etc. So no space combat raids I'm afraid (which I understand given the amount of whining there was in WoW about vehicle fights in raids).
Ideally what i would love to see in raids would be no less than 20 players, and possibly a 15 player difficulty. I would like there to be a normal and a hardmode setting, and some brand new mechanics. Also I like the Tank, Healer, Dps roles and think they should definitely be present, and possibly a pure support role in the form of a buffer/debuffer. Just my 2 cents :)